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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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 Posted: 04/25/07 6:11 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Please. A true friend would have set Chatman down and had a talk with her about what needed to be done, not blackball her for life by going behind her back to administration. |
Whoa...
There are greater issues to consider than friendship. The needs of them any outweigh the needs of the few.
If Pokey engaged in improper conduct, it needed to be reported. What the motivations were for reporting them (specifically in relation to the timing of the reporting) can be discussed (and used to impeach Berry's credibility), but it does NOT change the fact allegedly improper conduct needed to be reported. |
No, it didn't. If Pokey engaged in improper conduct years ago, it serves no good purpose to disrupt the team, destroy Pokey's career, and sabotage her own (Berry's) career by reporting it now.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/25/07 6:16 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| No, it didn't. If Pokey engaged in improper conduct years ago, it serves no good purpose to disrupt the team, destroy Pokey's career, and sabotage her own (Berry's) career by reporting it now. |
Years ago? Who decides how long ago it was where it does not matter? If it was improper then, it doesn't become less improper because it was not reported at the time.
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bluewolfvii
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| Posted: 04/25/07 6:19 pm ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| kage wrote: |
I read that Van Chancellor was ready to take on Carla Berry or at least consider her but that she decided herself without any input from him to leave first.
I thought it was also fairly well known that parts of the team were NOT happy with Berry; staying there would have - actually, probably already had - polarized/split the team.
Obviously Berry also felt strongly or was emotional and distressed over reporting Chatman.
I think combine the two together and it's not hard to see why Berry would want to leave LSU and get away from the whole coaching career. |
I agree with this and I am appalled at how many people want to villify the person who did the right thing because she turned in someone who had abused her position in one of the worst ways possible, even if it was while she was an assistant. The only thing Carla Berry seems guilty of is having a moral compass and a lot of people have lost or thrown theirs away. |
Carla Berry seems to have found a moral compass in backstabbing the friend who resurrected her career in coaching?
Please. A true friend would have set Chatman down and had a talk with her about what needed to be done, not blackball her for life by going behind her back to administration. |
Attitudes like this are what lead to cronyisms in government, police forces and large corporations. Since cops don't report other cops, they pretty much are free to break the law as long as they do so somewhat discretely. I have worked for years with police agencies and know first hand how toxic that policy is in practice and can only assume you speak from ignorance and passion in trying to defend someone you identify with. |
That's an incredibly naive statement and one I associate with someone who is sorely lacking in experience dealing with complex moral issues.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 04/25/07 6:21 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| No, it didn't. If Pokey engaged in improper conduct years ago, it serves no good purpose to disrupt the team, destroy Pokey's career, and sabotage her own (Berry's) career by reporting it now. |
Years ago? Who decides how long ago it was where it does not matter? If it was improper then, it doesn't become less improper because it was not reported at the time. |
If Chatman stopped the behavior and understood its ramifications there is no sense in reporting it years later.
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RavenDog
Joined: 19 Feb 2007
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| Posted: 04/25/07 8:12 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| No, it didn't. If Pokey engaged in improper conduct years ago, it serves no good purpose to disrupt the team, destroy Pokey's career, and sabotage her own (Berry's) career by reporting it now. |
Years ago? Who decides how long ago it was where it does not matter? If it was improper then, it doesn't become less improper because it was not reported at the time. |
If Chatman stopped the behavior and understood its ramifications there is no sense in reporting it years later. |
Obviously, there's more to this situation than just Berry going to the AD with allegations of prior year player's involvement. We don't know the circumstances and may not find out about them unless there is a suit and/or hearing or Berry and/or Chatman come forward and speak. I for one don't think Berry would go to the AD as a childish manuever to get even for something happening personally between her and Chatman. She's a bigger person than that. I believe her actions were in defense of the current team in some way, i.e., one or more players.
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kage
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| Posted: 04/25/07 8:24 pm ::: |
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The situations aren't equivalent but then what was the point of reporting priests who'd sexually abused boys in the past? The people who came forward had been abused years ago -- more than a decade in some cases, no?
Some situations need to be resolved and dealt with.
I want to take a quick tangent to raise up and answer another argument made by some posters.
Something similar to this has happened before in an online community I'm involved in. Again, not a match for match, but an older player - 19 - met a younger girl - 15 - and ended up having sexual relations with her. It was consensual in the sense that the younger girl had a history of acting out, had a bad home life, and seeking out older men to have sex with. There were several state lines crossed and what not so it's a bit hard to tell whether or not it was illegal given that some states have leeway for the statutory rape laws.
But I would argue that there was an implicit authority relationship between the two. Regardless of whether the younger girl agreed or disagreed, regardless of whether it was illegal or not, the older figure should have known better and not acted the way he did.
I find it a similar situation in the Chatman incident. I've found that some argue that it doesn't matter since it - apparently/supposedly - happened when she was an assistant, either as a student or an assistant coach.
If it was a continued relationship, why didn't she wait until the other player had graduated before taking up a position on the coaching staff? Or why not go to another school - college, high school, whatever - to assist there? I'm sure Sue Gunter must have had contacts in the college women's basketball community or in the surrounding area and could have helped Chatman find a job.
Sidenote: Given that Berry seemed to have just found out this past couple of months, I find it unlikely that it was a continued relationship. After all, Berry and Chatman were teammates no? It'd probably be hard to hide a relationship, esp. between players, in that setting.
If it were afterward, Chatman should have resigned or moved to another position where there wouldn't be an authority relationship.
It seems to me that there were/are options to deal with these situations and they weren't used.
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PurdueBBall3
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 04/25/07 8:28 pm ::: |
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| kage wrote: |
The situations aren't equivalent but then what was the point of reporting priests who'd sexually abused boys in the past? The people who came forward had been abused years ago -- more than a decade in some cases, no?
Some situations need to be resolved and dealt with.
I want to take a quick tangent to raise up and answer another argument made by some posters.
Something similar to this has happened before in an online community I'm involved in. Again, not a match for match, but an older player - 19 - met a younger girl - 15 - and ended up having sexual relations with her. It was consensual in the sense that the younger girl had a history of acting out, had a bad home life, and seeking out older men to have sex with. There were several state lines crossed and what not so it's a bit hard to tell whether or not it was illegal given that some states have leeway for the statutory rape laws.
But I would argue that there was an implicit authority relationship between the two. Regardless of whether the younger girl agreed or disagreed, regardless of whether it was illegal or not, the older figure should have known better and not acted the way he did.
I find it a similar situation in the Chatman incident. I've found that some argue that it doesn't matter since it - apparently/supposedly - happened when she was an assistant, either as a student or an assistant coach.
If it was a continued relationship, why didn't she wait until the other player had graduated before taking up a position on the coaching staff? Or why not go to another school - college, high school, whatever - to assist there? I'm sure Sue Gunter must have had contacts in the college women's basketball community or in the surrounding area and could have helped Chatman find a job.
Sidenote: Given that Berry seemed to have just found out this past couple of months, I find it unlikely that it was a continued relationship. After all, Berry and Chatman were teammates no? It'd probably be hard to hide a relationship, esp. between players, in that setting.
If it were afterward, Chatman should have resigned or moved to another position where there wouldn't be an authority relationship.
It seems to me that there were/are options to deal with these situations and they weren't used. |
Yeah, and most people have the world, their life, and all the answers figured out when they're 21 or so years old. Please.
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kage
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 04/25/07 8:30 pm ::: |
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Well no, but surely people know what is or isn't right in terms of authority relationships.
Heck, my close friend regularly has crushes on her GSIs and professors -- can't help that; never known hormones to pay attention to your mind sadly -- but she knows that a relationship would be improper on the part of her instructors.
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PurdueBBall3
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 04/25/07 8:45 pm ::: |
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| Hundreds, if not thousands, of instructors and students have sexual relationships. I've seen it happen in virtually every school I've taught. I'm not advocating it, but on the other hand, it hasn't always been an unhealthy circumstance either. Almost everything has grey around the black and white.
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"Boo-hoo. Oh, boo-hoo. Waaaah, waaaah, waaaaah." Notably Dumb's Muffie (Bitch) Yuckgraw
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CalwbbFan
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| Posted: 04/25/07 9:43 pm ::: |
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To compare the Pokey situation (whatever the truth may be) to priests molesting under-age boys is wrong.
Pokey may have used her position in a way that was unprofessional and inappropriate, but one has to assume the young woman involved was at least 18.....professors and students have relationships all the time and whatever it is-- it's not molestation--which is what the priests were guilty of.
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 04/26/07 9:08 am ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| kage wrote: |
I read that Van Chancellor was ready to take on Carla Berry or at least consider her but that she decided herself without any input from him to leave first.
I thought it was also fairly well known that parts of the team were NOT happy with Berry; staying there would have - actually, probably already had - polarized/split the team.
Obviously Berry also felt strongly or was emotional and distressed over reporting Chatman.
I think combine the two together and it's not hard to see why Berry would want to leave LSU and get away from the whole coaching career. |
I agree with this and I am appalled at how many people want to villify the person who did the right thing because she turned in someone who had abused her position in one of the worst ways possible, even if it was while she was an assistant. The only thing Carla Berry seems guilty of is having a moral compass and a lot of people have lost or thrown theirs away. |
Carla Berry seems to have found a moral compass in backstabbing the friend who resurrected her career in coaching?
Please. A true friend would have set Chatman down and had a talk with her about what needed to be done, not blackball her for life by going behind her back to administration. |
Attitudes like this are what lead to cronyisms in government, police forces and large corporations. Since cops don't report other cops, they pretty much are free to break the law as long as they do so somewhat discretely. I have worked for years with police agencies and know first hand how toxic that policy is in practice and can only assume you speak from ignorance and passion in trying to defend someone you identify with. |
That's an incredibly naive statement and one I associate with someone who is sorely lacking in experience dealing with complex moral issues. |
That's an incredibly arrogant statement and one I associate with someone that has negotiable morals, depending on what they cost you. I have been in tough situations, and I lost a job and went unemployed/underemployed for 2 years because of it, putting my family through a lot of turmoil because of it. And if I had it to do over again, I would do it the same way. Because I did the right thing, even though it caused me personally a lot of grief. Unfortunately nowadays too many people are like you and weigh their morals against their cost and usually let their wallet and not their concience decide what is right and wrong for them. Or make a thousand little justifications as to how everyone else does it...... ad infinitum.
Point blank, if you decide doing the right thing costs you too much, you probably aren't capable of doing it anyway.
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Michael
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PurdueBBall3
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| Posted: 04/26/07 9:22 am ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
| Point blank, if you decide doing the right thing costs you too much, you probably aren't capable of doing it anyway. |
Michael, sorry to hear about your struggle, but you're assuming and asserting that your right is someone else's right. I would propose to you that universal rights and universal wrongs are seldom, if ever, the case.
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"Boo-hoo. Oh, boo-hoo. Waaaah, waaaah, waaaaah." Notably Dumb's Muffie (Bitch) Yuckgraw
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 04/26/07 11:08 am ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| I agree with this and I am appalled at how many people want to villify the person who did the right thing because she turned in someone who had abused her position in one of the worst ways possible, even if it was while she was an assistant. The only thing Carla Berry seems guilty of is having a moral compass and a lot of people have lost or thrown theirs away. |
Carla Berry seems to have found a moral compass in backstabbing the friend who resurrected her career in coaching?
Please. A true friend would have set Chatman down and had a talk with her about what needed to be done, not blackball her for life by going behind her back to administration. |
Attitudes like this are what lead to cronyisms in government, police forces and large corporations. Since cops don't report other cops, they pretty much are free to break the law as long as they do so somewhat discretely. I have worked for years with police agencies and know first hand how toxic that policy is in practice and can only assume you speak from ignorance and passion in trying to defend someone you identify with. |
That's an incredibly naive statement and one I associate with someone who is sorely lacking in experience dealing with complex moral issues. |
That's an incredibly arrogant statement and one I associate with someone that has negotiable morals, depending on what they cost you. I have been in tough situations, and I lost a job and went unemployed/underemployed for 2 years because of it, putting my family through a lot of turmoil because of it. And if I had it to do over again, I would do it the same way. Because I did the right thing, even though it caused me personally a lot of grief. Unfortunately nowadays too many people are like you and weigh their morals against their cost and usually let their wallet and not their concience decide what is right and wrong for them. Or make a thousand little justifications as to how everyone else does it...... ad infinitum.
Point blank, if you decide doing the right thing costs you too much, you probably aren't capable of doing it anyway. |
Sorry, Michael, that you have suffered for your choice to do what was right. Doing the right thing has its rewards as well as its inherent costs. That tells me that in your heart you are a noble person. But what is a shame it that you have overlooked the rewards and choose instead to focus on the costs in your need to blame others.
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 04/26/07 11:22 am ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| I agree with this and I am appalled at how many people want to villify the person who did the right thing because she turned in someone who had abused her position in one of the worst ways possible, even if it was while she was an assistant. The only thing Carla Berry seems guilty of is having a moral compass and a lot of people have lost or thrown theirs away. |
Carla Berry seems to have found a moral compass in backstabbing the friend who resurrected her career in coaching?
Please. A true friend would have set Chatman down and had a talk with her about what needed to be done, not blackball her for life by going behind her back to administration. |
Attitudes like this are what lead to cronyisms in government, police forces and large corporations. Since cops don't report other cops, they pretty much are free to break the law as long as they do so somewhat discretely. I have worked for years with police agencies and know first hand how toxic that policy is in practice and can only assume you speak from ignorance and passion in trying to defend someone you identify with. |
That's an incredibly naive statement and one I associate with someone who is sorely lacking in experience dealing with complex moral issues. |
That's an incredibly arrogant statement and one I associate with someone that has negotiable morals, depending on what they cost you. I have been in tough situations, and I lost a job and went unemployed/underemployed for 2 years because of it, putting my family through a lot of turmoil because of it. And if I had it to do over again, I would do it the same way. Because I did the right thing, even though it caused me personally a lot of grief. Unfortunately nowadays too many people are like you and weigh their morals against their cost and usually let their wallet and not their concience decide what is right and wrong for them. Or make a thousand little justifications as to how everyone else does it...... ad infinitum.
Point blank, if you decide doing the right thing costs you too much, you probably aren't capable of doing it anyway. |
Sorry, Michael, that you have suffered for your choice to do what was right. Doing the right thing has its rewards as well as its inherent costs. That tells me that in your heart you are a noble person. But what is a shame it that you have overlooked the rewards and choose instead to focus on the costs in your need to blame others. |
I'm not the one that keeps attacking the person that did the right thing in this Chatman mess trying to protect the guilty party. Chatman screwed up, Berry was made aware of this and did the right thing by going to her bosses boss upon hearing of it. She then did the couragious thing and told Chatman what was happening and her role in it. How you can keep spinning this into something self serving and deserving of punishment and your vendetta, I cannot fathom.
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Michael
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 04/26/07 11:52 am ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
| I'm not the one that keeps attacking the person that did the right thing in this Chatman mess trying to protect the guilty party. Chatman screwed up, Berry was made aware of this and did the right thing by going to her bosses boss upon hearing of it. She then did the couragious thing and told Chatman what was happening and her role in it. How you can keep spinning this into something self serving and deserving of punishment and your vendetta, I cannot fathom. |
How quickly you assign guilt in a situation in which facts have yet to be established, and condemn those who dare to disagree with your rigid sense of morality.
It must be lonely on the cross for one whose moral certitude has been so clearly established..
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 04/26/07 12:09 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| I'm not the one that keeps attacking the person that did the right thing in this Chatman mess trying to protect the guilty party. Chatman screwed up, Berry was made aware of this and did the right thing by going to her bosses boss upon hearing of it. She then did the couragious thing and told Chatman what was happening and her role in it. How you can keep spinning this into something self serving and deserving of punishment and your vendetta, I cannot fathom. |
How quickly you assign guilt in a situation in which facts have yet to be established, and condemn those who dare to disagree with your rigid sense of morality.
It must be lonely on the cross for one whose moral certitude has been so clearly established.. |
Who again is trying to crucify Carla Berry? Awfully pompous when you are the one doing most of the accusing aren't you?
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Michael
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bluewolfvii
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| Posted: 04/26/07 12:23 pm ::: |
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| I'm pretty sure that the only thing I've accused Berry of here is going behind a friend's back to turn her in for a relationship that may have occurred when Chatman was an assistant. If you find that so upsetting that you must condemn my ignorance and question my morals, then perhaps you need to examine your identification with Berry and ask yourself if there are any unresolved issues.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/26/07 12:36 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure that the only thing I've accused Berry of here is going behind a friend's back to turn her in for a relationship that may have occurred when Chatman was an assistant. If you find that so upsetting that you must condemn my ignorance and question my morals, then perhaps you need to examine your identification with Berry and ask yourself if there are any unresolved issues. |
Your previous posts sounded much more definitive as to Berry's conduct.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 04/26/07 12:45 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure that the only thing I've accused Berry of here is going behind a friend's back to turn her in for a relationship that may have occurred when Chatman was an assistant. If you find that so upsetting that you must condemn my ignorance and question my morals, then perhaps you need to examine your identification with Berry and ask yourself if there are any unresolved issues. |
Your previous posts sounded much more definitive as to Berry's conduct. |
Did they? Remind me, Cam. I haven't posted on this issue since before last week. I don't recall what I said about Berry, but whatever it was it must have been terrible to have inflamed the the morality police.
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CamrnCrz1974
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| Posted: 04/26/07 12:49 pm ::: |
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Blue, I was just talking about this thread.
An example:
| Quote: |
| I don't know that anyone could have forseen Berry (or whoever it was who drove this) need for punishment/ vengeance in leaking the damaging aspects of the allegations to the press after Chatman already stepped down. |
Do we actually know Berry leaked them to the press? Granted, you have a qualifier, but the connotation was you thought it was Berry.
Another example:
| Quote: |
| Please. A true friend would have set Chatman down and had a talk with her about what needed to be done, not blackball her for life by going behind her back to administration. |
Do we know Berry did not? Do we know if Berry previously told Pokey to stop the conduct? Do we know if Pokey discussed starting a new relationship with a current player (just an example), so Berry decided something had to be done as a preventive measure?
Again, I am just proposing how your statements in this thread may have sounded more "definitive" vis-a-vis Berry to some readers.
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 04/26/07 1:42 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure that the only thing I've accused Berry of here is going behind a friend's back to turn her in for a relationship that may have occurred when Chatman was an assistant. If you find that so upsetting that you must condemn my ignorance and question my morals, then perhaps you need to examine your identification with Berry and ask yourself if there are any unresolved issues. |
Carla Berry seems to have found a moral compass in backstabbing the friend who resurrected her career in coaching?
Please. A true friend would have set Chatman down and had a talk with her about what needed to be done, not blackball her for life by going behind her back to administration.[/quote]
Reconcile those two posts by you, and I think you will see where I am coming from.
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Michael
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LTF1
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 04/26/07 1:49 pm ::: |
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Kage:"I thought it was also fairly well known that parts of the team were NOT happy with Berry; staying there would have - actually, probably already had - polarized/split the team."
It is and I have posted on it before esp re Sylvia Fowles who couldn't keep her mouth shut during the tourney about how Chatman was like a "mom" to her and that she talked to her everyday.
Can anyone imagine both Sylvia and Berry being on the same team after that?
Also, people seem to think that coaching for these people is the most important thing in life. Berry was out of coaching before and believe me there are things she can do in the private sector that will pay her more (and give her a lot less headaches) than being an asst coach at LSU.
Allegations were reported to her, she reported the allegations and Chatman chose to resign. It's that simple. I wish Carla Berry luck in whatever she does |
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 04/26/07 1:50 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
Blue, I was just talking about this thread.
..
Again, I am just proposing how your statements in this thread may have sounded more "definitive" vis-a-vis Berry to some readers. |
Definitive as to some aspects of Berry's behavior, yes. Inflammatory, I didn't think so.
There have been persistent rumors as to Berry's motivations and timing regarding the allegations. Berry left LSU. Chatman's career is in shambles. The accuser doesn't deserve a 'no-questions-asked pass.
The facts as I have come to understand them are (1) Chatman hired Berry into a $75K assistant coaching position after Berry had been out of coaching (2) Berry was Chatman's 'trusted friend' (3) Chatman confided in Berry about the accusations, not realizing that it was Berry who had accused her (4) Chatman was unaware that she was under surveillance (5) Berry exchanged emails with the associate head coach about Chatman (6) Chatman did not learn about the allegations until shortly before she hired an attorney and shortly thereafter resigned.
That is the basis of some of my comments as to Berry's actions. But I would gladly reverse those comments if Berry would address some of those unanswered questions.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 04/26/07 2:00 pm ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
| kage wrote: |
..I thought it was also fairly well known that parts of the team were NOT happy with Berry; staying there would have - actually, probably already had - polarized/split the team.
Obviously Berry also felt strongly or was emotional and distressed over reporting Chatman.
I think combine the two together and it's not hard to see why Berry would want to leave LSU and get away from the whole coaching career. |
I agree with this and I am appalled at how many people want to villify the person who did the right thing because she turned in someone who had abused her position in one of the worst ways possible, even if it was while she was an assistant. The only thing Carla Berry seems guilty of is having a moral compass and a lot of people have lost or thrown theirs away. |
Michael, read this statement that prefaced those remarks and ask yourself whether you were writing about Carla Berry's life or your own. Then you can start searching for another poster's moral compass.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/26/07 2:10 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| kage wrote: |
..I thought it was also fairly well known that parts of the team were NOT happy with Berry; staying there would have - actually, probably already had - polarized/split the team.
Obviously Berry also felt strongly or was emotional and distressed over reporting Chatman.
I think combine the two together and it's not hard to see why Berry would want to leave LSU and get away from the whole coaching career. |
I agree with this and I am appalled at how many people want to villify the person who did the right thing because she turned in someone who had abused her position in one of the worst ways possible, even if it was while she was an assistant. The only thing Carla Berry seems guilty of is having a moral compass and a lot of people have lost or thrown theirs away. |
Michael, read this statement that prefaced those remarks and ask yourself whether you were writing about Carla Berry's life or your own. Then you can start searching for another poster's moral compass. |
As opposed to bending over backwards to villify everything she may or may not have done and make Chatman a wholly innocent martyr? If Michael is projecting, he certainly isn't the only one. What happened to your avatar you displayed when Chatman resigned? Thought it made your agenda a little too overt?
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