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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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 Posted: 05/05/06 2:09 pm ::: |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
You seem angry. Perhaps I've touched a nerve. |
Now who would think that calling someone a racist would perhaps touch a nerve? lol! I can't imagine such a thing. But perhaps you're right! Why would that make anyone angry?
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| Listen, let me explain it to you in a way that might be able to understand. |
I'll try to keep up.
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| You are lucky enough to be a citizen of the richest country in the world. My guess (though I could be wrong) is that you generally get enough food to eat, have somewhere to sleep, and have enough resources to take care of yourself and your family. Many people, due to birth circumstances, country of origin, family background, geographical location, political circumstances, etc. do not have those same luxuries that you do. |
Oh God this is such news to me. Where have you been all my leftist life? 48 sorry years of it. I had NO IDEA that there were others around the world who don't have what I have. Thank you, hooper. Thank you for opening the jammer's eyes. I OWE you for that. Now I will change my entire socio-economic world view to take into account THIS incredible NEW information. You've been SO helpful.
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| We have more jobs than we can fill in this country. |
Yes. Absolutely. All the opportunity is here for everyone. Everyone in the WORLD. We are ON IT now, BABY. Black folks. What the hell is your problem? Fill those good paying jobs. Haven't you heard? Hooper says there's plenty for not only you but for all the rest of the people of the world.
Black thinkers. Shut up with your concerns. Half the black people in major cities unemployed? Better check those numbers cause they're way off. Plenty of good jobs out there. Go get 'em.
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| Immigrants (from all countries) would like to work. We make it expensive and very difficult to come to this country. |
There's the United States. And everyone else in the world is an immigrant trying to get in here. Okay, hooper. I got it. Thanks. Oh, and we're making it difficult. Can't forget that.
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| So these people come to the US in whatever way they can, and work hard and become productive in society (in fact, many are better community members than the US citizens who were born here.) |
Oh yeah. Better citizens. They are BETTER! Y'all here that? Now see. I have to confess I kinda knew this one. Or suspected I should say. I kinda thought they might be better citizens than African Americans. You know what I'm sayin'? Right. 
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| Our government has deemed this illegal. |
That damn government! I KNEW IT! Fuckers! There they go again deeming things illegal. Why would those craven despots even create such a vile notion as a national border? You know what that is?
It's RACIST. That's what it is.
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| Our government also deemed homosexuality illegal at one point, as well has making slavery legal.) |
Uh... you're forgetting saccharin. And they even once tried to outlaw air pollution. But we were saved fom that injustice by the present (and highly benevolent and righteous) administration.
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| So why the vitriolic hatred of the immigrants. |
That's what I'm thinkin' EXACTLY? Why the vitriolic hatred for the immigrants? Oh I'm so ashamed. Really I am. But you have to understand. I was blind. I couldn't see what I was truly thinking. This is why I love this message board. People like you, hooper. You come here and without so much as me asking for your help you freely give it to me. You opened my blind eyes. God bless YOU!
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Why not lobby to fix the system instead of complaining that the immigrants might be taking away your precious, privileged resources?
Simple enough, eh?
Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.
P.S. You really weaken your argument with all of the profanities and name calling. I count 8 profanities in your last post. Is that the best you can do? |
Okay I can't must another comic keystroke. You STUPIDLY call me a racist in front of my friends and you don't think you're going to get cursed at? You think curse words weaken my argument or positions?
Honey. NOTHING (especially your elementary basic and wrong headed attempt in this last response at making a debate of this) in this thread has weakened my argument in the slightest. Why don't you go somewhere and pick on someone on your own level because you're totally not up to debating me._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/05/06 2:13 pm ::: |
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| Sass wrote: |
I don't want to get involved in this bitter argument, but I do want to make one point.
Anyone can be a racist. I work in a school where there is often tension between the Black and Latino students. This has always seemed ridiculous to me. Each group experiences racism from society at large, and then each turns around and delivers it back to another racial minority. Then both groups call each other faggots and bitches. Every day I am telling kids to cut the n-word, the f-word and the b-word.
Anyone can be a racist. And a homophobe. You don't have to be white to be a bigot. |
Wanting to lock down your borders and protect the economic health of your fellow citizens even to the detriment of illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border does not make a person a racist. Discussing real life scenarios that are happening as a result of decades of that unchecked immigration does not make someone a bigot. Calling someone a Mexican instead of a Hispanic doesn't make a person SMELL like a racist._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/05/06 2:34 pm ::: |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| P.S. You really weaken your argument with all of the profanities and name calling. I count 8 profanities in your last post. Is that the best you can do? |
I said that nothing in this thread weakened my argument. That was incorrect. You want to know what weakened my argument? YOU. You couldn't, on point, even discuss the issue of immigration or the concerns I specifically made. So the actual debate fizzled. You sidetracted the entire discussion really with your inflammatory accusations of racism. All you had to bring to this discussion was the race card and you played it early and often._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/05/06 2:51 pm ::: |
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| Slovydal wrote: |
Leaving things the way it is (a blind eye to our southern borders being crossed) also allows the exploitation of those that come here for work:
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060505/NEWS01/605050505
A guest worker program - DOCUMENTATION of workers will protect them. Simply granting amnesty every several years just encourages more people to come here illegally... |
My problem with the President's plan is that it sets up a guest worker program that will send back workers after 10 months. We already know that many of the workers don't go back.
So those workers will skip out and get some fake ID and companies like Benchmark will bring in new busloads of guess workers raking in $1500 and above finding fees (subtracted, of course, from the paychecks of the 'guest workers' (soon to be illegals when their time is up.)
Companies who use these workers continue to turn over the workforce every 10 mos with new faces (so less likely to stick around long enough with the same employer long enough to form workplace bonds or ask their employers for better working conditions or wages.)
The FAIREST bill (and the bill that most immigrants want to see approved) is the bi-partisan McCain-Kennedy bill that would allow workers already here 6 years to stay after paying a $2000 fine, taking a citizen test, learning English, paying taxes, etc., and would allow 3-year guest visas.) There's nothing at all unfair about it, except to businesses who don't the burden of more 'permanent workers' and naysayers like Ann Coulter and those assholes on FOX who like her plan to have the illegal immigrants build a 700 mile long wall along our Southern border, then deport them.
Even President Bush said the McCain-Kennedy bill was derailed by partisan politics.
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815
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| Posted: 05/05/06 3:01 pm ::: |
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| Let me just interrupt for a sec to say, this is why this board rocks! Great information and discussion with a mix of comedic dissing! Love it!
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/05/06 3:11 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
| Let me just interrupt for a sec to say, this is why this board rocks! Great information and discussion with a mix of comedic dissing! Love it! |
Thank you, d! That was some FUNNY shit I posted, thank you very much. A little praise never hurts. Someone could even HAIL the jammer once in a while if it's not too much trouble.  _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/05/06 3:13 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| President's plan |
Oxymoron. _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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BCBG25
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Location: Sampa
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| Posted: 05/05/06 4:35 pm ::: |
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| Jammer Lennox, no need to pat yourself on the back. I wish I could enlighten myself by reading all your posts, but as I've stated here many times, I hate long posts, I hate reading, my eyes hurt, my head spins, yet, I still reply to you. Isn't that amazing?
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Kings of the World!
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 12205
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: 05/05/06 5:07 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
The FAIREST bill (and the bill that most immigrants want to see approved) is the bi-partisan McCain-Kennedy bill that would allow workers already here 6 years to stay after paying a $2000 fine, taking a citizen test, learning English, paying taxes, etc., and would allow 3-year guest visas.) There's nothing at all unfair about it, except to businesses who don't the burden of more 'permanent workers' and naysayers like Ann Coulter and those assholes on FOX who like her plan to have the illegal immigrants build a 700 mile long wall along our Southern border, then deport them.
Even President Bush said the McCain-Kennedy bill was derailed by partisan politics. |
That's a pretty decent plan and it's sounds fair. BUT, we still need to stop the flow of more illegal immigrants.
I think the part about learning English is important. All over the world people are learning English because it is the language of business in today's world. For the US to be bi-lingual only separates one group of people from the rest of the United States.
And separate but equal is not equal.
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 2300
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| Posted: 05/05/06 7:14 pm ::: |
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| Slovydal wrote: |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
The FAIREST bill (and the bill that most immigrants want to see approved) is the bi-partisan McCain-Kennedy bill that would allow workers already here 6 years to stay after paying a $2000 fine, taking a citizen test, learning English, paying taxes, etc., and would allow 3-year guest visas.) There's nothing at all unfair about it, except to businesses who don't the burden of more 'permanent workers' and naysayers like Ann Coulter and those assholes on FOX who like her plan to have the illegal immigrants build a 700 mile long wall along our Southern border, then deport them.
Even President Bush said the McCain-Kennedy bill was derailed by partisan politics. |
That's a pretty decent plan and it's sounds fair. BUT, we still need to stop the flow of more illegal immigrants.
I think the part about learning English is important. All over the world people are learning English because it is the language of business in today's world. For the US to be bi-lingual only separates one group of people from the rest of the United States.
And separate but equal is not equal. |
Well, actually, we should all be learning to speak Mandarin Chinese and Hindi, the most common languages in the world. English and Spanish are a distant 3rd and 4th.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_1.htm
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: 05/05/06 7:25 pm ::: |
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I said that:
All over the world people are learning English because it is the language of business in today's world.
I didn't say English was the most common language in the world.
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Sass
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 5576
Location: where it's sunny and warm
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| Posted: 05/05/06 7:52 pm ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Sass wrote: |
I don't want to get involved in this bitter argument, but I do want to make one point.
Anyone can be a racist. I work in a school where there is often tension between the Black and Latino students. This has always seemed ridiculous to me. Each group experiences racism from society at large, and then each turns around and delivers it back to another racial minority. Then both groups call each other faggots and bitches. Every day I am telling kids to cut the n-word, the f-word and the b-word.
Anyone can be a racist. And a homophobe. You don't have to be white to be a bigot. |
Wanting to lock down your borders and protect the economic health of your fellow citizens even to the detriment of illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border does not make a person a racist. Discussing real life scenarios that are happening as a result of decades of that unchecked immigration does not make someone a bigot. Calling someone a Mexican instead of a Hispanic doesn't make a person SMELL like a racist. |
I knew you were going to choose to miss the point.
_________________
_________________
More high school team allegiances than can be believed
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He's the greatest of the greater
get it straight - he's great
- Run-DMC
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/05/06 9:47 pm ::: |
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| Sass wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| Sass wrote: |
I don't want to get involved in this bitter argument, but I do want to make one point.
Anyone can be a racist. I work in a school where there is often tension between the Black and Latino students. This has always seemed ridiculous to me. Each group experiences racism from society at large, and then each turns around and delivers it back to another racial minority. Then both groups call each other faggots and bitches. Every day I am telling kids to cut the n-word, the f-word and the b-word.
Anyone can be a racist. And a homophobe. You don't have to be white to be a bigot. |
Wanting to lock down your borders and protect the economic health of your fellow citizens even to the detriment of illegal immigrants crossing the Mexican border does not make a person a racist. Discussing real life scenarios that are happening as a result of decades of that unchecked immigration does not make someone a bigot. Calling someone a Mexican instead of a Hispanic doesn't make a person SMELL like a racist. |
I knew you were going to choose to miss the point. |
No SASS. That's a misreading of my post. I didn't miss your point. And it's quite a valid point. But I've been trying to seperate that entirely different discussion, racism and who is and who isn't and who has more or less of it underneath the surface, FROM this debate in this thread. That's what I've been doing and your post gave me an easy opportunity to further distance the real issues from the racism witch hunt. This is a thread about illegal immigration and what would really be helpful is if we could have that debate without dismissing the opinions of others by throwing out there the horrible charge that they're racists.
It's beyond the pale to sit smugly on the left and tag as racist (j'accuse!) anyone who wants to lock down the borders or enforce existing laws of the United States regarding illegal immigration. It's just beyond the fucking pale. We have to get to the point in this country that we can have political discussions without being sidetracked by those on either political extreme who seem almost to have been trained to employ one tactic in dealing with people who think differently about something. If you're on the right the tactic has always been to simply accuse someone of being un-American. A communist. Someone who hates America. etc. And if you're on the left you level the charge of racism or intolerance or ignorance. These people are really talking to each other. They're not equipped to talk to serious people. And the left has far more that it's share.
What happened here in this thread is disturbingly typical. You think I missed your point but I didn't. Tena only said that laws should be enforced and she dared to use the word Mexican instead of the politically correct Hispanic. And then someone calls her a racist. I simply point out some of the realities here in LA of decades of unchecked illegal immigration accross the Mexican border and then I'm called a racist as well for doing that. We can't say that laws should be enforced or point out the impact of all this on our own country and ourselves without being subjected to this most inflammatory charge?
Sorry. I won't be deterred.
There is an injustice in seeing a woman of color who lives in a Southern state called a racist for simply, in her own classic style, asking that the laws of the United States as regarding a country that borders her own state be enforced. No one else in this country has been so impacted as a group by this border problem than her exact demographic. I've given real world information to this board that none of you knew that should validate the concerns that anyone might have about what the impact is on African Americans of unchecked illegal immigration from Mexico.
I've never seen an issue that makes people so quickly step away from their own analytical minds and revert to emotionally charged rhetoric. There are people here among us on this board who because of their leftist ideology believe that the border itself is racist and unjust. That's not an analytical perspective it's an emotional perspective. And it's a sophmoric head in the sand perspective. These people feel if you can walk into this country you should be allowed to and that we should not only allow this but welcome and embrace these people and call them fellow citizens.
How can we rationally discuss this issue with people who believe that this would be a workable solution? How can anyone believe that an emotional solution that ignores and refuses to even discuss real world ramifications, because of a belief that the human rights aspects of this issue trump reasoned analysis and discussion, will be, in the end, the right course for all of us?_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 05/05/06 10:25 pm ::: |
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| Without reading through all of these posts, remind me why, as a gay man born in this country, I don't have the full privileges of citizenship...
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/05/06 11:31 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Without reading through all of these posts, remind me why, as a gay man born in this country, I don't have the full privileges of citizenship... |
I can't answer that but I'll ask you a question. How are you going to feel if this shakes out in a way that grants those rights and privileges to formerly illegal immigrants who don't even speak English and you STILL don't enjoy them yourself? As slovy has pointed out, this is an issue of fairness as it applies to everyone._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/05/06 11:32 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Without reading through all of these posts, remind me why, as a gay man born in this country, I don't have the full privileges of citizenship... |
And oh, just read through my posts. _________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 05/06/06 12:12 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Without reading through all of these posts, remind me why, as a gay man born in this country, I don't have the full privileges of citizenship... |
I can't answer that but I'll ask you a question. How are you going to feel if this shakes out in a way that grants those rights and privileges to formerly illegal immigrants who don't even speak English and you STILL don't enjoy them yourself? As slovy has pointed out, this is an issue of fairness as it applies to everyone. |
Hmm, this brings up a good question. Should we be penalizing those Americans who don't speak English or just those undocumented workers who don't speak English?
And would penalizing those undocumented workers help gays get civil rights?
Or maybe those who are discriminated against should just pool their resources and efforts and lobby for an end to discrimination all together!
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/06/06 6:38 am ::: |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Without reading through all of these posts, remind me why, as a gay man born in this country, I don't have the full privileges of citizenship... |
I can't answer that but I'll ask you a question. How are you going to feel if this shakes out in a way that grants those rights and privileges to formerly illegal immigrants who don't even speak English and you STILL don't enjoy them yourself? As slovy has pointed out, this is an issue of fairness as it applies to everyone. |
Hmm, this brings up a good question. Should we be penalizing those Americans who don't speak English or just those undocumented workers who don't speak English?
And would penalizing those undocumented workers help gays get civil rights?
Or maybe those who are discriminated against should just pool their resources and efforts and lobby for an end to discrimination all together! |
Do you think those first two questions are good questions? It's just sarcasm and it's not unlike the Canadian border diversion but applied to the language issue.
The last point is just leftist fantasy. Kumbaya!
I'm still very much on the left politically but that's one of the things that has come to disgust me about the left. This pillar of the faith that all the little people are benevolent and good humble victims. The world will be such a better place if the workers of the world would just unite etc. It's beyond naive. The little people are almost assuredly victims of many exploitive systems. There's no question about that.
But don't expect goodness and benevolence from any culture.
Mexican and other latinos from Central America who have crossed the border illegally into this country are a case study in a clash of cultures and values. The unpleasant politically incorrect truths about them haven't even begun to be discussed in regards to this situtation. To even try to initiate a discussion about those things is to guarantee that someone will quickly shout you down as a racist.
How many of you people live in the Southwest or California? How many of you have lived and worked with Hispanics who are new enough to this country to be unable to speak English well? For how long? In what capacity? What is YOUR real world experience? That's what I'm interested in hearing. Truth. Personal stories. Not what you learned in a social anthopology class or from taking sides on TV.
What do you know about the Mexicans that are pouring into your country by the hundreds of thousands if not millions? I've lived in Los Angeles for now, give or take some months here and there, over 20 years. I worked with Mexicans, El Salvadorians, Guatemalans, all for years. Often 10 hour days, 6 day weeks. Not a handful of Hispanics. Hundreds. In a supervisory position. I know the cultures. You guys talk about people as if you know them. I don't think you do. But IF you do, I'd like to hear your practical real world observations.
You're going to get mine in the days to come, you better know that.
How about you, Hooper? What do you know?
What do you know about machismo? Not what YOU think it is... the Americanized macho macho man version. Manly men and all that. What do you think it means to Mexicans? I won't keep you in suspense. It's an absolute essential of Mexican culture. It certainly doesn't mean simply manly male behavior and all that or abusing women but, sorry, those things are in there. But you better know that front and center as a lynchpin of the culture is a VERY conservative attitude toward the acceptable roles of men and women in society and the workplace. This is WHO they are. Have you witnessed this stuff for years, people? Have you had to work around and through it. Have you had to deal with workplace lawsuits involving women over the illegal discriminatory treatment they experienced at the mercy of latino kitchens?
This culture that you're welcoming with open arms is very intolerant. Did you know that? That intolerance is like a wall. Right now in Southern California, in the two places where Latinos and African Americans are forced together, prisons and public schools, there are currently riots or near riots. That's right now. This year. This spring. This week.
I don't have any doubt about what's the driving force behind that tension. You might. That's okay. Maybe you haven't had the decades of upclose experience I've had in the city with the largest concentration of Hispanics in the country. That's okay. Over a month ago on this board I said that what was most ironic about the movie Crash was that the Hispanics were the only characters in the film who did not act out racial intolerance.
Now. Am I saying deport everyone who is here illegally? No. I'm not saying some people shouldn't be deported. A lot of people should be. But I'm for some sort of path to citizenship but please put people who entered the country legally and are awaiting citizenship AHEAD of the illegals in line.
There's one thing that is absolutely basic. Lock down the border, no matter what it takes. Put illegals on a path to citizenship that incorporates some HEAVY debriefing on the subject of attitudes towards women and other minorities, especially black people AND gays. But lock down the border permanently and control immigration from Mexico legally. WTF is so wrong about that?_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/06/06 8:48 am ::: |
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Jammerbirdi wrote:
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How many of you people live in the Southwest or California? How many of you have lived and worked with Hispanics who are new enough to this country to be unable to speak English well? For how long? In what capacity? What is YOUR real world experience? That's what I'm interested in hearing. Truth. Personal stories. Not what you learned in a social anthopology class or from taking sides on TV.
What do you know about the Mexicans that are pouring into your country by the hundreds of thousands if not millions? I've lived in Los Angeles for now, give or take some months here and there, over 20 years. I worked with Mexicans, El Salvadorians, Guatemalans, all for years. Often 10 hour days, 6 day weeks. Not a handful of Hispanics. Hundreds. In a supervisory position. I know the cultures. You guys talk about people as if you know them. I don't think you do. But IF you do, I'd like to hear your practical real world observations. |
I work with immigrants from many places and have done so most of my career in industrial chemical research. A co-worker used to refer to our company by adding the descriptive modifier 'U.N.'-- for United Nations. We had residents from at least 20 nations and they were a sizeable % of the workplace, particularly in the entry level engineering and chemist positions.
Don't think for a minute that it didn't cost US residents jobs or didn't affect me directly.
The trend to globalization was already in full swing when the Soviet Union fell. It was a corporate windfall of Eastern European talent at rock bottom prices-- not just for my company but all over the US and Europe.
You could look at this as good paying jobs being taking away from American born kids, because it was. But you could also look at it as a boon in terms of US companies in terms of productivity enhancements, new inventions, and windfall profits in the hands of our stockholders that kept companies like mine doing well enough to continue to funnel money into R&D .
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/06/06 8:57 am ::: |
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Where is opposition to immigration most intense? Is it in places like New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, and California, which are more directly affected?
You might be surprised by the answer.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20060505/cm_rcp/immigration_south_and_west
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Concern about immigration is certainly quite intense in border states. A survey by the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press released at the end of March found (unsurprisingly) that people in places with a lot of immigrants were more likely to see immigration as a major problem for their communities.
But at the same time, those people were less likely to see immigrants as a burden on their communities or a threat to American values or culture. And, revealingly enough, the converse held as well: People with the least exposure to immigrants were the most likely to see them as a rampaging horde, stealing jobs and making native-born Americans have to press '1' for English (dos para Español).
Indeed, this bears out quite well in state polls. One finds that the Southwest and Texas are quite favorably disposed toward immigrants, while the better part of the South is bursting with hostility.
Back in December of 2005, Survey USA tracked views on immigration in all 50 states. In West Virginia, 60 percent of respondents agreed that "immigrants take jobs away from Americans." The picture was the same throughout most of the South: In Alabama, 56 percent agreed, Arkansas 53 percent, Mississippi 53 percent, South Carolina 53 percent.
Meanwhile, only 33 percent in New Mexico agreed that immigrants take away American jobs. In Arizona it was 42 percent, Colorado 44 percent, Nevada 44 percent and California 30 percent. |
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/06/06 9:05 am ::: |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Without reading through all of these posts, remind me why, as a gay man born in this country, I don't have the full privileges of citizenship... |
I can't answer that but I'll ask you a question. How are you going to feel if this shakes out in a way that grants those rights and privileges to formerly illegal immigrants who don't even speak English and you STILL don't enjoy them yourself? As slovy has pointed out, this is an issue of fairness as it applies to everyone. |
Hmm, this brings up a good question. Should we be penalizing those Americans who don't speak English or just those undocumented workers who don't speak English?
And would penalizing those undocumented workers help gays get civil rights?
Or maybe those who are discriminated against should just pool their resources and efforts and lobby for an end to discrimination all together! |
Good points, Hooper. Brings to mind an article I just read in Washington, DC's gay paper, 'Justice Isn't Just About Us'.
| Quote: |
...On the one hand, immigrants are being told that unless they are citizens they cannot have rights, while gays are being told that despite being citizens, they cannot have rights. Each one helps keep the other down, while African Americans are encouraged to step on both groups, while continuing to face racism themselves.
WHAT THAT LEAVES us with is a
lot of people who are systemically discriminated against fighting each other for top rung on the ladder of oppression. Like crabs in a barrel, we keep pulling one another down, doing the dirty work for a system whose power structure depends on our remaining divided and actively opposing each other...
http://www.washblade.com/2006/5-5/view/columns/romo.cfm |
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 5007
Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/06/06 10:28 am ::: |
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Jammer, when I was in my 20s I lived in Tucson for a short time, but long enough to experience first hand some discrimination at the hand of machismo in the Latino culture.
My girlfriend at the time and I were walking to Pima County Community College looking for a living situation with roomates because we didn't have a roof over our heads.
I had no idea what neighborhood we were in -- we were justing walking from Point A to Point B. We were no doubt dressed in the lesbian feminist fashion of the day. I had long hair, but hers was cut short. It was late morning and the sun was searing..almost time for mid-afternoon siesta. We had been getting turned away at job interviews at places like Jack-in-the-Box all morning. It wasn't even noon and -not being used to the place- we were already exhausted.
Several Latino youth, perhaps looking to impress upon the females in their group, came up behind us and started accosting us with vulgarities including one English word, 'Dyke'. We hastened our pace and they pulled up, but someone threw a rock at us.
So you are telling me the climate toward gays hasn't changed much? Well, it hasn't changed in many other parts of the US, either, and not just for Latinos.
Experience tells me that my gay friends and acquaintances are just as likely to be shot at in a bar or found murdered right here in Western PA.
I had the rock thrown at me in the 70s by the Tucson youth, but it was a local resident from Ambridge, PA, who phoned in a death threat to a radio station where I was speaking for gay rights in the 80s.
The Tucson youth yelled a slur, but the year before two Pittsburgh men followed me in their car while I was running on foot. They were yelling out the window they were going to beat me up and rape me-because I had the temerity to tell them to bug off after they verbally accosted me. They were white men and that happened just a few blocks off the Pitt campus.
My high school in a major city in the supposedly liberal North East had very few Latinos when I was growing up, but there were separate staircases for whites and blacks. We had race riots several times a semester. My best friend got a black eye waiting for the bus. My police officer uncle used to come and get me out of school at the request of my mother because she feared for my safety during the riots.
Please don't think I'm surprised at all about machismo in Latino culture, or what the Roman Catholic church teaches. My state university employs Rene Portland, remember? It wasn't leftist idealism that formed my views as to discrimination and hate.
Btw, Cesar Millan the Mexican born and raised 'Dog Whisperer' with his own show on Nat'l Geographic came over the border with a coyote, penniless, standing for hours up to his neck in water waiting for the border patrol to move on from the spot they were crossing.
He landed in San Diego without a dime before being taken in by two women who gave him a job dog grooming.
This machismo man holds as his role model for 'calm assertive energy' none other than Oprah Winfrey.
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Keegan
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 6861
Location: The Cathedral of Snark
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| Posted: 05/06/06 10:35 am ::: |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| I can't answer that but I'll ask you a question. How are you going to feel if this shakes out in a way that grants those rights and privileges to formerly illegal immigrants who don't even speak English and you STILL don't enjoy them yourself? |
I am extremely offended by this comment, on several levels. It reeks of xenophobia and you do not advance your argument with cheap shots like these. |
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