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4ever_bball_fan
Joined: 20 Dec 2004
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Location: Houston
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 Posted: 05/03/06 2:59 pm ::: |
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| I agree about some sort of amnesty period, but then the only thing that comes to mind is that lawyers will be the only ones making money on that deal. As was stated, manuevering through the governmental maze to get to legal status will be difficult enough.
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KeiraNY
Joined: 19 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 05/03/06 4:18 pm ::: |
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Well, I was thinking more in terms of having people from the INS or whatever govt dept to send people to churches, communities, etc and EXPLAIN to people how to begin their citizenship process.
I mean how many of us are not baffled by the bureaucracy when we go to the DMV or ANY govt office? And we claim to know the ins & outs. These immigrants don't! Imagine someone not getting their citizenship b/c of a technicality? That would ROYALLY suck!
As for lawyers, there have to be some guidelines for those bloodsuckers too! (sorry Cam) In order to avoid the 'all or nothing' attitude this govt has, there HAS to be a happy medium and I think amnesty is the happy medium!
| 4ever_bball_fan wrote: |
| I agree about some sort of amnesty period, but then the only thing that comes to mind is that lawyers will be the only ones making money on that deal. As was stated, manuevering through the governmental maze to get to legal status will be difficult enough. |
_________________ Since this "FUCK this 'signature is too long' bullshit!!!" is no longer applicable, I'm gonna have to get creative - just not right now. Oh, GO LIBERTY!!!!  |
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16365
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 05/03/06 4:24 pm ::: |
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For what it's worth --
About three or four years ago, I had a conversation with our local sheriff. We had recently had a local identity theft ring busted. Illegal immigrants were using papers stolen from all over the country to work illegally in the West Lafayette area. The police identified the workers using stolen identities, identified the people who were selling them and identified their employers, who knew what was going on.
They contacted INS and the FBI for assistance and were told that the federal government didn't care about illegal immigrants from Mexico. They would only help if the illegal immigrants committing felonies (identity theft, tax fraud, etc., etc.) were from the Middle East.
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Sass
Joined: 22 Mar 2005
Posts: 5576
Location: where it's sunny and warm
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| Posted: 05/03/06 7:32 pm ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| I smell a racist. |
I think many of us do.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/03/06 7:48 pm ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
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| Sass wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| I smell a racist. |
I think many of us do. |
You guys. Don't talk about this person like that. You don't know her. She's not a racist and the only thing you're smelling is your own stinky thinking. And please don't insinuate that "many of us" think she is a racist. That's a vile and fantastically off base accusation. Many of us have been posting with her for 6 or 7 years. This thread quickly turned ridiculous when it devolved into a pedestrian argument over the name game instead of a discussion of illegal immigration._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/03/06 7:51 pm ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
I have really been trying to let this one pass BUT I am about to go on vacation so I figured I better let it out . . .
I have nothing against legal immigrants but I have a big problem with this Mexican immigrant thing.
1. I am not understanding how you come into somebody else's house illegally and demand that you now be made legal without going tthrough the proper channels.
2. I have a BIG BIG problem when I hear them compare their plight to to Martin L. King and the civil rights movement.
3. When I hear them say "We do the jobs that the Blacks won't do" I am not sure if that is a back-handed compliment or a straight in your face dis.
I think if illegal immigrants are granted amnesty that All American born citizens who do not have a felony should be allowed 1 illegal act (no guns) . Me I'd be at the bank make a large withdrawal. |
I take it you're not "Mexican." |
I might be! And what difference would that make? All "Mexicans" do not agree with this immigrant idea. Heard some and talk to some. So by you school of thought I need to go tell them that they are not "Mexicans" (that is what they call themselves) |
Why aren't screaming about the illegal Candadians and illegal immigrants from Europe and Spain and Africa.
I smell a racist. |
Because illegal Canadians and other illegals from Europe and Spain and Africa are not the problem. Wake from your politically correct fog long enough to understand what the actual problem is. It's a PC inspired diversionary argument. Immigration from Canada doesn't present a real world problem to the US. It only presents a convenient subterfuge for people who mistakenly THINK that there's something to be gained by accusing people of being unfair or, worse, racist. All you're doing is pissing people off._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 12205
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: 05/03/06 8:25 pm ::: |
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Several years ago, I was managing a coffee house in So Cal. I hired friends and people I knew from the college accross the street from the cafe.
Many were born outside the US. One from Chile, one from India (via Scotland) one from Egypt, one from Japan, one from Iran, one from Viet Nam, one from Ethiopia.
All went through LEGAL channels to get here. ALL of them had to go through the pain in the ass experience of dealing with INS, but they all did it. Most of them are US citizens now.
I also had two Mexican-American employees (born in the US)
What's wrong with everyone playing by the rules?
Giving one group of people special treatment is racist.
As for the "plight" of the illegal immigrants from south of our border;
There are many places in the world where the people's own govt. will execute them, where disease is rampant, where there is no hope.
People go to Mexico on vacation.
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Awase
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 4
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: 05/03/06 8:53 pm ::: |
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| KeiraNY wrote: |
Well, I was thinking more in terms of having people from the INS or whatever govt dept to send people to churches, communities, etc and EXPLAIN to people how to begin their citizenship process.
As for lawyers, there have to be some guidelines for those bloodsuckers too! (sorry Cam) In order to avoid the 'all or nothing' attitude this govt has, there HAS to be a happy medium and I think amnesty is the happy medium! |
INS is now CIS - Citizenship and Immigration Services. They fall under the Dept. of Homeland Security since it was established in 2002 or 03. Most, if not all CIS offices have community outreach programs with all the local immigrant groups and have monthly or quarterly meetings with community based organizations that assist immigrants in getting through the process of becoming lawful permanent residents.
As for lawyers, I've seen some good ones and some horrible ones. Either they are upstanding and take cases that don't smell of benefit fraud, charge reasonable fees and thoroughly assist their clients. I've also seen some who will take cases they know are fraud through and through, bleed their clients dry and don't file the proper applications, briefs with Immigration Court when their clients wind up in deportation proceedings or flat out take off with tons of their clients money and leave them at the mercy of the system.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/03/06 10:27 pm ::: |
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Jammer, you might be interested in this morning's program from NPR about US headhunters paying $1500 per guest worker up front.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5378502
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For a long time, many companies, not just in landscaping but in many other sectors of the economy, have been using guest workers rather than improving wages and working conditions in order to attract workers who are available and already in this country. Citizens and legal, permanent residents," says Ira Mehlman of the Federation for American Immigration Reform. "We shouldn't have government programs that are designed to keep wages in certain sectors of the labor market down."
The starting wage for the San Diego landscapers is between $7.50 and $8.50 an hour. Benchmark Landscaping offers roughly the same pay to U.S. residents. But it doesn't get many takers.
"Believe it or not, finding good workers even here in San Diego is hard," says Vice President Craig Mohns. "It's not just landscapers that are looking for the Hispanic workforce. It's every trade out there is looking for them. And then you go into restaurants and the Burger Kings and you name it. Everybody's looking for that worker. And it's getting harder and harder to find good, quality workers."
Benchmark pays $1,500 up front for each guest worker, to cover visa processing and transportation. Over time, the company will recover that money through deductions from the workers' wages |
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Bush's plan will keep the status quo through issuing hundreds of thousands of temporary worker visas. I don't consider that to be reform, so much as taking the floor out from beneath America's working class.
On this we agree. 
Where we disagree is what to do with the people already here. Deporting them isn't going to solve the problem because US companies like Benchmark will have US corporate clients lined up for replacement workers. It will go round and round..
Legalize the people who are already here, I say, increase the numbers of people who can come in through immigration channels, and decrease the numbers who come in on worker visas because that's where our shit's being exploited.
Not by the illegals or temporaries but by the US Govt and the Business Interests to which the US Govt is beholden. Shall we say it's business as usual.
Make legal the hundreds of thousands of hard workers already here so they are full US citizens who are NOT beholden to bosses looking to cheap out on wages and healthcare, NOR to headhunting coyotes like Benchmark whose fees get taken from the tops of their paychecks. Don't punish the workers .. vest them in the system so that like the rest of us they have a choice. They can be fired..and stay here. Perhaps they will be the next generation of card carrying unionists.. we can pray.
Last edited by bluewolfvii on 05/03/06 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66974
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 05/03/06 10:33 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Vest them in the system so that like the rest of us they can be fired..and stay here. Perhaps they will be the next generation of card carrying unionists.. we can pray. |
Why are the Republicans on the amnesty bandwagon? Maybe it's because the majority of these immigrants are strongly anti-gay and anti-abortion, as you might expect from men brought up in an almost exclusively catholic environment.
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I ain't got a home
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 05/03/06 11:50 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
Jammer, you might be interested in this morning's program from NPR about US headhunters paying $1500 per guest worker up front.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5378502
| Quote: |
For a long time, many companies, not just in landscaping but in many other sectors of the economy, have been using guest workers rather than improving wages and working conditions in order to attract workers who are available and already in this country. Citizens and legal, permanent residents," says Ira Mehlman of the Federation for American Immigration Reform. "We shouldn't have government programs that are designed to keep wages in certain sectors of the labor market down."
The starting wage for the San Diego landscapers is between $7.50 and $8.50 an hour. Benchmark Landscaping offers roughly the same pay to U.S. residents. But it doesn't get many takers.
"Believe it or not, finding good workers even here in San Diego is hard," says Vice President Craig Mohns. "It's not just landscapers that are looking for the Hispanic workforce. It's every trade out there is looking for them. And then you go into restaurants and the Burger Kings and you name it. Everybody's looking for that worker. And it's getting harder and harder to find good, quality workers."
Benchmark pays $1,500 up front for each guest worker, to cover visa processing and transportation. Over time, the company will recover that money through deductions from the workers' wages |
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Bush's plan will keep the status quo through issuing hundreds of thousands of temporary worker visas. I don't consider that to be reform, so much as taking the floor out from beneath America's working class.
On this we agree.
Where we disagree is what to do with the people already here. Deporting them isn't going to solve the problem because US companies like Benchmark will have US corporate clients lined up for replacement workers. |
Where who disagrees, blue? I haven't proposed or supported deporting people.
The piece says veryone wants the Hispanic worker who is the only one who will work for $7.50. But what is the life style, the standard of living, that $7.50 provides in bloody Southern California? Is that a living wage in this state? I don't know that it's a living wage in Aliquippa, homey. Okay so that's an economic reality of pulling people from across the border to work here. It's exploitive. These people are living 20 to an apartment in LA.
The whole idea of the jobs no one else wants to do has a basis in truth... because of the fact that we've had a ready supply of people who are willing to accept the pay. It's just an exploitive situation that bypasses American citizens who need living wage jobs. It's not much different from these companies that moved their operations to Mexico so they could drop labor costs through the floor._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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Location: The Happening
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| Posted: 05/04/06 12:28 am ::: |
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| Quote: |
| It's not much different from these companies that moved their operations to Mexico so they could drop labor costs through the floor. |
Its exactly the same and its a corporate pandemic, just like my former company (who, bw, just officially shut down corporate headquarters in pittsburgh) ( http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06112/684185-28.stm
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Representatives of workers in Mexico and Brazil used interpreters to complain that workers in Mexico who try to form a union are fired and that Alcoa is violating labor laws in Brazil. The Mexican representative said workers in that country are paid $50 for a 48-hour week.
Mr. Belda, who speaks five languages, disputed the complaints, first in Spanish and Portuguese, then in English. "We pay better wages than the average company in the regions [where] we operate," he said. |
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/04/06 12:46 am ::: |
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[quote="bluewolfvii"]
Thanks for the link, blue. Unlike manufacturing, this is a situation where you can't move uh... the farms and the car washes and the rich people's lawns and the restaurant kitchens and the new construction down TO Mexico. So you move Mexico here. To the tune of an exploitive hybrid Mexican-American economy which, to Mexicans, is a great step up in many ways. But to America and Americans? It denegrates the humanity of our nation's attitudes and actions toward the poorest and most needy workers. And we have them here already. (poor and needy workers, that is.) But we're screwing them because we want REALLY poor and needy workers. They're SO much easier to exploit.
Okay. Now you're getting the good stuff from the jammer. lol!_________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17 |
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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Keegan
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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Location: The Cathedral of Snark
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| Posted: 05/04/06 12:57 am ::: |
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| *goes to local travel agent to pick up brochures about Mexico* |
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Slovydal
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 12205
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: 05/04/06 6:39 am ::: |
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He's already backing off that idea.
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bluewolfvii
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KeiraNY
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PUmatty
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bluewolfvii
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PUmatty
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bluewolfvii
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hooper1
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 05/04/06 11:06 am ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
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| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
I have really been trying to let this one pass BUT I am about to go on vacation so I figured I better let it out . . .
I have nothing against legal immigrants but I have a big problem with this Mexican immigrant thing.
1. I am not understanding how you come into somebody else's house illegally and demand that you now be made legal without going tthrough the proper channels.
2. I have a BIG BIG problem when I hear them compare their plight to to Martin L. King and the civil rights movement.
3. When I hear them say "We do the jobs that the Blacks won't do" I am not sure if that is a back-handed compliment or a straight in your face dis.
I think if illegal immigrants are granted amnesty that All American born citizens who do not have a felony should be allowed 1 illegal act (no guns) . Me I'd be at the bank make a large withdrawal. |
I take it you're not "Mexican." |
I might be! And what difference would that make? All "Mexicans" do not agree with this immigrant idea. Heard some and talk to some. So by you school of thought I need to go tell them that they are not "Mexicans" (that is what they call themselves) |
Why aren't screaming about the illegal Candadians and illegal immigrants from Europe and Spain and Africa.
I smell a racist. |
Because illegal Canadians and other illegals from Europe and Spain and Africa are not the problem. Wake from your politically correct fog long enough to understand what the actual problem is. It's a PC inspired diversionary argument. Immigration from Canada doesn't present a real world problem to the US. It only presents a convenient subterfuge for people who mistakenly THINK that there's something to be gained by accusing people of being unfair or, worse, racist. All you're doing is pissing people off. |
Wake-up. You don't see anyone complaining about Canadians because they don't look "different" and they don't speak a different language. You can pretend that there's no element of racism in the debate over immigration, but there most certainly is.
Racism is alive and well, and it is people like you who keep it going. Sad indeed.
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jammerbirdi
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 21046
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| Posted: 05/04/06 3:09 pm ::: Re: My Immigrant Rant |
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| hooper1 wrote: |
| jammerbirdi wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
| hooper1 wrote: |
| MsTena-T wrote: |
I have really been trying to let this one pass BUT I am about to go on vacation so I figured I better let it out . . .
I have nothing against legal immigrants but I have a big problem with this Mexican immigrant thing.
1. I am not understanding how you come into somebody else's house illegally and demand that you now be made legal without going tthrough the proper channels.
2. I have a BIG BIG problem when I hear them compare their plight to to Martin L. King and the civil rights movement.
3. When I hear them say "We do the jobs that the Blacks won't do" I am not sure if that is a back-handed compliment or a straight in your face dis.
I think if illegal immigrants are granted amnesty that All American born citizens who do not have a felony should be allowed 1 illegal act (no guns) . Me I'd be at the bank make a large withdrawal. |
I take it you're not "Mexican." |
I might be! And what difference would that make? All "Mexicans" do not agree with this immigrant idea. Heard some and talk to some. So by you school of thought I need to go tell them that they are not "Mexicans" (that is what they call themselves) |
Why aren't screaming about the illegal Candadians and illegal immigrants from Europe and Spain and Africa.
I smell a racist. |
Because illegal Canadians and other illegals from Europe and Spain and Africa are not the problem. Wake from your politically correct fog long enough to understand what the actual problem is. It's a PC inspired diversionary argument. Immigration from Canada doesn't present a real world problem to the US. It only presents a convenient subterfuge for people who mistakenly THINK that there's something to be gained by accusing people of being unfair or, worse, racist. All you're doing is pissing people off. |
Wake-up. You don't see anyone complaining about Canadians because they don't look "different" and they don't speak a different language. You can pretend that there's no element of racism in the debate over immigration, but there most certainly is.
Racism is alive and well, and it is people like you who keep it going. Sad indeed. |
Oh yes, so I'm a racist now too. Love it. Tena and now me. You think nothing of throwing around one of the worst accusations that can possibly be made among enlightened people. This is your contribution to the illegal immigration debate? Come to the board and tell people who don't tow your politically correct line that they're racist. And you're telling me to wake up. Wake up yourself. The Canadian argument is a diversion. Quickly boxing someone who has something to say on the subject of immigration into an argument over what to call people is also a diversion based on politically correct pedantry. But calling people who simply have the temerity to discuss illegal immigration from a side other than yours RACIST is the biggest diversion of all and in this case it's also absolute bullshit and you should be ashamed that all you could do in this discussion is tell shit-headed lies about people.
Let me ask you a question. Why did you put Mexican in quotation marks like it's a racial slur or a word you yourself could only quote? That's how fucking tied down to the ideology of political correctness you are.
They're not all Mexicans you know. Some of them are from other countries. Many don't like to be called Mexicans you know. Let's not talk about the impact on illegals coming accross the Mexican border. That's a racist discussion. Let's instead talk about what to call them, eh. What about Canadian illegal immigration? Huh? Why are we focusing on Mexica... oops... I mean "Hispanics?"
Why don't you BRING some intelligence to the other side of this debate instead of being a horse's ass? Refute some of the stuff I've said. Discuss the impact on the working poor of America of having people come across the border (Would that be the Canadian border, Einstein?) who are willing to work for money Americans couldn't live on because they live 20 in an apartment? You don't just get cheap labor coming across the border. You import a lowered standard of living and say that it's now acceptable. 20 in an apartment works for them so we should accept it.
What does your politically correct ass have to say about that? So you think America NEEDS people who, because they're "Hispanic" and happily willing to live 20 in an apartment, are able to survive on wages that American citizens, especially in rich California, never could? What do you have to say about that, Hooper? Who's the fucking racist?
Say something that reflects an understanding of real life for a change._________________ Every woman who has ever been presented with a career/sex quid pro quo in the entertainment industry should come forward and simply say, “Me, too.” - jammer The New York Times 10/10/17
Last edited by jammerbirdi on 05/04/06 3:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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