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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67013 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 04/27/24 7:37 pm ::: |
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summertime blues wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
scullyfu wrote: |
I read long ago that many young women chose volleyball over basketball bc they were fearful of being labeled lesbians. |
Much of that is parent driven. Many parents don't want their daughters to be labeled as lesbians or to actually "become" lesbians. |
AS if they weren't born that way, which is a discussion for another place. |
That's why I put it in quotes. Despite all evidence to the contrary, plenty of parents out there think basketball will convert their sweet little girls.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15753 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 04/27/24 10:52 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
Volleyball is attractive for a number of reasons, but it all starts in middle school.
Middle school is when girls decide what sport to play in the summer -- that is, the sport they will take most seriously. And the major influence on middle school girls is other middle school girls. In short, what are their friends doing?
It's not about what sport an elite athlete is best at, necessarily. She's 12 and isn't thinking about scholarships or her future that much. She wants to play with her friends. (Of course there are exceptions ...)
Her friends are not elite athletes and maybe not even very good athletes. So what do they choose?
Volleyball has no running, no contact, no screaming parents and spandex shorts.
Basketball has running, contact, parents yelling from the stands and less attractive uniforms.
Which sport is an average middle school girl going to choose?
(And this post isn't about volleyball -- it's about the future shape of women's basketball.) |
All clearly articulated, Clay - I understood froom the beginning what you were referencing.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11171
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Posted: 04/28/24 2:39 pm ::: |
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By definition, any player who puts on a WNBA uniform is a WNBA player. In the same way, any player who gets a scholarship is a scholarship player.
But the quality of the product in either case is dependent on the quality of the athletes. If the quality of the product declines, then there will be an impact on customer satisfaction, to put it in business terms.
So far, though, the WNBA and USA Basketball have shown little interest in dealing with the decline in participation (of course the college world is worried about other things). To me, that could be construed as mere stupidity all the way up to dereliction of duty.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32340
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Posted: 04/28/24 3:17 pm ::: |
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My boss once said to not lose sight of quality over quantity. He used the example of the company parking lot...where the most cars by quantity were by far the ford Fiesta.
I think the quality of the coaching and competition is light years ahead of 2012, and that was light years ahead of 2002. And like Elsie, I'm happy there are so many sports now for girls! It's all good.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010 Posts: 5389 Location: Chocolate Paradise
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Posted: 04/28/24 4:28 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
My boss once said to not lose sight of quality over quantity. He used the example of the company parking lot...where the most cars by quantity were by far the ford Fiesta.
I think the quality of the coaching and competition is light years ahead of 2012, and that was light years ahead of 2002. And like Elsie, I'm happy there are so many sports now for girls! It's all good. |
💙
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9666
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Posted: 04/28/24 4:49 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
Volleyball is attractive for a number of reasons, but it all starts in middle school.
Middle school is when girls decide what sport to play in the summer -- that is, the sport they will take most seriously. And the major influence on middle school girls is other middle school girls. In short, what are their friends doing?
It's not about what sport an elite athlete is best at, necessarily. She's 12 and isn't thinking about scholarships or her future that much. She wants to play with her friends. (Of course there are exceptions ...)
Her friends are not elite athletes and maybe not even very good athletes. So what do they choose?
Volleyball has no running, no contact, no screaming parents and spandex shorts.
Basketball has running, contact, parents yelling from the stands and less attractive uniforms.
Which sport is an average middle school girl going to choose?
(And this post isn't about volleyball -- it's about the future shape of women's basketball.) |
Has some of that changed during the period referenced? If not, I don't think it would be an explanation of why the participation amount changed during those years.
The WNBA is also not a league of women who would choose volleyball because it has no contact and shorter shorts. And I assume you wouldn't propose that basketball be called per the rulebook to lower the amount of contact and make the game more suitable for some females.
Last edited by tfan on 04/29/24 9:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11171
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Posted: 04/29/24 8:52 am ::: |
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It's been a slow evolution, primarily driven by the improvement of youth level volleyball.
One big change in the past decade is the appearance of full-time, year-round volleyball coaches working in the club system. These coaches naturally want girls to play year round because that's how they make their living, and they work hard to create an environment that encourages girls to stay involved.
Without a lot of running and no contact, the fun of the sport is more prominent, and when you add in the culture of the sport -- the fans are polite, the teams bond as a group, etc. -- it's just become more and more attractive to young girls who like sports but aren't necessarily cutthroat competitors.
At the same time, basketball has become more physical (that's how you win) and the culture in the stands has become more negative and sometimes downright ugly. The full-scholarship requirement means that competition for that big money is brutal, and players move from team to team to get the best chance, they feel, at what is truly a lot of money.
At another level, the officiating in basketball has declined because no one wants to deal with the abuse from parents and coaches, while volleyball officiating is easy money and the culture is such that abuse is rare (and no one really understands the rules).
The trend is obvious, and there's no reason to expect it to change. The Caitlin Clark phenomenon may have some impact, but really, the middle school girls who decide what sport to play are probably not watching much sports on TV.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21950
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Posted: 04/29/24 9:06 am ::: |
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My niece stopped playing basketball and opted for volleyball instead. For her it's a lower-stress and more social sport to play. She's fairly sporty but not super competitive.
I get the appeal for someone like her.
As a spectator though it's still a no for me.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9666
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Posted: 04/29/24 11:06 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
At the same time, basketball has become more physical (that's how you win) |
I would say "that's how it is called". If the refs started calling fouls for "physicality" it would be "how you lose".
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The trend is obvious, and there's no reason to expect it to change |
I expect it to change. Unless high schools start having two or more volleyball teams there is a limit to how many players can play volleyball. And volleyball is a terrible sport for bench players since no one needs a break or gets in foul trouble and there is no "garbage time" as time never runs out.
If high school girls are playing a single sport year round I would think basketball could lose players to any sport, not just volleyball. I don't know what "The full-scholarship requirement" refers to but the fact that basketball scholarships persist means that the best basketball players should stick around.
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snichols
Joined: 24 Mar 2010 Posts: 90
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Posted: 04/29/24 5:26 pm ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
I expect it to change. Unless high schools start having two or more volleyball teams there is a limit to how many players can play volleyball. And volleyball is a terrible sport for bench players since no one needs a break or gets in foul trouble and there is no "garbage time" as time never runs out.
If high school girls are playing a single sport year round I would think basketball could lose players to any sport, not just volleyball. I don't know what "The full-scholarship requirement" refers to but the fact that basketball scholarships persist means that the best basketball players should stick around. |
High school isn’t the primary driver of youth sports, and hasn’t been for some time. Club teams are where the best players play. High school basketball still gets most of the best players, in addition to their club teams, but at least around here, the best soccer players don’t play for their high school teams, just for club teams. The club teams have much better coaching, and the club teams don’t want their players playing high school.
I don’t know about the state of volleyball, other than I think it has become the biggest travel sport for girls, but there are as many club teams as there are parents willing to fund them.
The full scholarship requirement is that basketball is one of the sports that is required to award full scholarships, whereas volleyball can award partial scholarships.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9666
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Posted: 04/29/24 6:00 pm ::: |
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snichols wrote: |
High school isn’t the primary driver of youth sports, and hasn’t been for some time. Club teams are where the best players play. High school basketball still gets most of the best players, in addition to their club teams, but at least around here, the best soccer players don’t play for their high school teams, just for club teams. The club teams have much better coaching, and the club teams don’t want their players playing high school.
I don’t know about the state of volleyball, other than I think it has become the biggest travel sport for girls, but there are as many club teams as there are parents willing to fund them. |
OK, but I don't think the figures captured that as they were from the National Federation of State High School Associations. Thanks for clarifying full scholarship requirement.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11171
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Posted: 04/29/24 6:44 pm ::: |
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>I expect it to change. Unless high schools start having two or more volleyball teams there is a limit to how many players can play volleyball. And volleyball is a terrible sport for bench players since no one needs a break or gets in foul trouble and there is no "garbage time" as time never runs out.
In California, most high schools have three volleyball teams, and many more girls try out for volleyball than basketball.
It used to be that most high schools had three basketball teams, but no more. It's hard to even find frosh teams to play, and a few schools don't have JVs.
The playing time issue cuts both ways. There are six volleyball players on the court, and there's room for specialization. Aside from the libero, some girls are back-row and are subbed out when they rotated to the front.
And in general, high school teams play eight or nine of the 12 or so on the roster, so the amount of time on the bench can be substantial.
The point about clubs is spot on, and as mentioned, club volleyball coaches can make a living doing only that -- so they are highly motivated to keep girls and parents happy. Club basketball coaches on the women's side are not full-time, and with parents chasing those full rides, team bonding is less. In volleyball, only the very elite get a full ride; most get some kind of partial, which might even be just a cash outlay.
I would love to believe things will turn around, but if you're on the ground, you've seen the shift happen. I've had several girls want to play basketball but their club volleyball coaches essentially wouldn't let them, saying they'd lose their spot on their club teams if they didn't play year round.
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TechDawgMc
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 Posts: 402 Location: Temple, TX
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Posted: 05/04/24 7:40 pm ::: |
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Volleyball players tend to play both high school and club. The high school coaches generally encourage them to play club. That’s one reason why it seems a lot of players feel the need to choose between volleyball and basketball.
And volleyball will usually play the six starters, a libero, and at least two specialists. So that’s roughly nine players who get solid time. The deeper part of the bench may see little playing time — though they tend to get in when the team wins two quick games.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9666
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Posted: 05/05/24 6:30 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
Quote: |
I expect it to change. Unless high schools start having two or more volleyball teams there is a limit to how many players can play volleyball. And volleyball is a terrible sport for bench players since no one needs a break or gets in foul trouble and there is no "garbage time" as time never runs out. |
In California, most high schools have three volleyball teams, and many more girls try out for volleyball than basketball.
It used to be that most high schools had three basketball teams, but no more. It's hard to even find frosh teams to play, and a few schools don't have JVs. |
I was referring to a second varsity team. I think it would be extremely rare for a high school freshman or JV player to make it to a college team without ever having played on varsity. So if one is going to use number of participants to demonstrate less talent feeding college, it should be the numbers of varsity players. And really only the number of varsity players who play, since the ones watching aren't scholarship candidates. In order for those numbers to change, schools would need to add or drop volleyball or basketball varsity teams. Is that happening? It is possible that good candidates to play varsity basketball choose volleyball instead, but that won't be caught with total participation numbers.
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The playing time issue cuts both ways. There are six volleyball players on the court, and there's room for specialization. Aside from the libero, some girls are back-row and are subbed out when they rotated to the front.
And in general, high school teams play eight or nine of the 12 or so on the roster, so the amount of time on the bench can be substantial. |
What I was getting at is that the number of athletic girls who can play varsity volleyball (and forego basketball) is limited to a fixed amount. Let's say 10 per school each year. It can't increase further unless a school who doesn't have a volleyball program adds volleyball.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11171
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Posted: 05/05/24 4:02 pm ::: |
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Of course only the elite athletes impact the higher levels ...
But if more athletes play volleyball than basketball, it follows that more elite athletes will play volleyball than basketball.
And as I have mentioned, the decision the elite athlete makes about which sport to play occurs in middle school, long before any thoughts of professionalism enter in, and peer group pressure is paramount.
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004 Posts: 1058 Location: PA
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Posted: 05/08/24 3:27 am ::: |
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Michael wrote: |
Oh yeah, 6 over 5, that is such a huge difference. Why not just come out and say if you didn't start the thread or think it relevant it needs to be squashed because you are SOOOOO entitled you think this is all about you. This board's discussions would improve dramatically if you were removed from it. |
Okay, let's do some math:
The Vball vs BBall numbers:
2022-23: 470,488/373,366 = 1.26
2018-19: 452,808 /399,067 = 1.13
2012-13: 420,208/433,120 = 0.97
6/5 = 1.2
Wow! 1.26 is so much higher than the 1.2 prediction based just on the number of players on the court! (forget other factors mentioned).
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