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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 12/22/23 10:17 am ::: |
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| I think a lot of people are minding a lot of other people's business for the sake of a couple of edge cases, and that people who want to make this a crusade are revealing a lot more about themselves than they care to admit.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/22/23 1:57 pm ::: |
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Micheal wrote:
There are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child, its a badge of being "liberal enough".... Even by the most optimistic predictions, tans persons are 1 in 1000. Most of these trans kids are being pushed into it by parents desperate to prove they are part of the "in crowd" Caitlyn Jenner has gone on record that the recent uptick in all these people coming out as trans is mostly people chasing the hype and trying to find a way to be "special" and to escape the current message in liberal media that if you are white and male you are the source of all evil in the universe.
Cite your sources. If you can't, I will label this what it is---complete and utter BULLSHIT!
Queenie, please come back and be our moderator!
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 12/22/23 1:58 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| I think a lot of people are minding a lot of other people's business for the sake of a couple of edge cases, and that people who want to make this a crusade are revealing a lot more about themselves than they care to admit. |
This. So much THIS!!!!! Thank you, Queenie!
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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CalwbbFan
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 1474
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| Posted: 12/22/23 4:33 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| I think a lot of people are minding a lot of other people's business for the sake of a couple of edge cases, and that people who want to make this a crusade are revealing a lot more about themselves than they care to admit. |
Exactly!
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7409
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 12/22/23 7:42 pm ::: |
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| wnbafan wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
Trans athletes need/deserve a place to play/compete. I'm not sure how this will look in the future, but I don't think that the default is that they should be playing competitively against/with cis females in high speed and contact sports. Many young girls will drop out of sports because of the disadvantage and that's not fair to them.
What is fair to everyone?? I don't know. I don't know that there is anyway to make it fair. There will be growing pains while we look for how to deal with this.
There's just a lot that we have to learn, accept as reality and figure out. |
Thank you ex-Ref for a respectful criticism of trans women competing with cis women. This speaks to the importance of allowing children to transition early when they are clear about who they are. A pre-puberty transition to female leads to a trans female having similar musculature as cis female. While true that a post puberty trans female taking female hormones will lose muscle mass, they will still have more muscle mass than most cis females and will most certainly have higher average height. |
You have to be 17 to drive, 18 to vote, 21 to legally drink alcohol, but we are going to let per-pubesent kids make life altering decisions that have no reset ability to them..... That to me is a massive case of child abuse by the parents and sexual exploitation. |
When I was 8 and everyone was bullying me and telling me I was really a boy, (the boys AND girls pushed me into the boys' line routinely),I thought about it deeply and realized I was not a boy. I know that a significant number of trans people know they are trans at a very young age. The parents of children who KNOW they are trans also KNOW their child is trans (except for the clueless, in denial parents). This might be difficult for cis people to comprehend, but I know it's true. For myself, I knew I wasn't a boy and the only default back then was that I was a girl, when actually I'm non binary. Note that the answer I got from deep inside was NOT "I am a girl" but rather "I am not a boy." I have no doubt at all that if I'd known it was an option, I'd have been clear at age 8 that I was non binary. It's easy for me to see that some children know they are trans.
Those of you that doubt that a child can know they are trans are simply lacking in the experience of knowing something deeply at that age. Children can know they are gay, children can know they are trans, children can know they are nonbinary. |
Thank you raf for your personal story.
When a child tells you something isn't right with them, listen. This not only applies to their gender, but anything that they need help with.. |
Thank you! As an aside, my daughter exhibited signs at an early age of being 100% heterosexual. She went to a very gay accepting high school and, to my surprise, one day said she had a girlfriend. That ended quickly when the gf wanted public displays of affection in the hallway at school. But she had an open attitude. So when her best friend since age 3 told her he was trans, she announced it to me with "I have a big brother!" I had the honor, a few years later of accompanying them to the courthouse to apply for change of gender.
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~rAf
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7409
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 12/22/23 7:45 pm ::: |
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| patsweetpat wrote: |
| Michael wrote: |
There are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child. |
This is, literally, false. The very first sentence of your post is an objective falsehood. What are the specific neighborhoods in LA where "almost every family has a trans child"? Name said neighborhoods. You can't. Because they do not exist. |
Thank you Pat for pointing out the utter BS of that statement. Most of what that person says is coming out of the wrong orifice. Every word should be questioned.
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Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 3330
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| Posted: 12/22/23 7:56 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
I am equally bothered by the fact that there appears to be no moderator assigned to this folder is compounded by the complete inability to report posts to any moderator.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15753
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 12/22/23 7:57 pm ::: |
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Michael, thank you for bringing up a topic that desperately NEEDS discussion. Please forgive the (same) people - and they know who they are -who wanna bitch and kvetch cuz somebody dares to think differently: they're as *discriminatory* and prejudiced as they pretend you are.. 
The accusation that Michael doesn't tag all the 'accurate' pronouns is forgiveable. THAT is a progressive skill that we'll all have to get better at. When I talk with friends of trans kids, we both can get confused.
Enough preamble: For the topic of this thread, I agree with Michael....on MOST points. A girl who begins to transition from a bio male at age 17 might be 6'10" tall, and isn't gonna lose much in the way of muscle mass, etc., by the time she's a 20 year old collegiate player. It's MOST UNFAIR for her to carry this advantage over her opponents on a basketball court. On the other hand, a boy that begins hormone therapy by age 11 or 12 might not have any significant advantage over female peers.
Like rAf, I can attest to a similar childhood experience of divergent gender identity. By age 5, I KNEW I was more female than male. 50 years ago, "transitioning" and hormone blockers weren't even concepts in my universe. My *therapy* was more Old-School: my much older sisters liked to 'dress me up' (I ate that right up  ) However: I had 3 older brothers who pretty much beat that notion out of me. Now, 50 years later, I look back and know my life as a cis-male was exactly what I needed. I have always enjoyed being "male" and masculine, in sports and beyond.
The point is, there ARE certainly kids who have that level of self-awareness. I was one of them. Does that qualify them to make that decision? That's another debate that must go on a case-by-case basis. I've seen 4-year-olds that totally identify as other than their birth certificates indicate. As an elementary teacher I saw numerous cases of this - never a majority, but certainly a relevant number. The right-wing notion is that this is just another new*woke* fad is bullshit - trans people have been around for time immemorial. Here's a brief his/herstory of a Native American whose fame brought her to the White House.
Now then. HERE we diverge, Michael:
| Michael wrote: |
There are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child,its a badge of being "liberal enough".... [stupid propaganda. Period] Even by the most optimistic predictions, tans persons are 1 in 1000. Most of these trans kids are being pushed into it by parents desperate to prove they are part of the "in crowd" [more stupid propaganda.]  Caitlyn Jenner [utter twit, actually describing herself:] has gone on record that the recent uptick in all these people coming out as trans is mostly people chasing the hype and trying to find a way to be "special" and to escape the current message in liberal media that if you are white and male you are the source of all evil in the universe.
I am NOT saying that trans persons do not exist, but the current numbers are way out of balance with the probable reality. |
This last sentence above makes no sense, to me: "current numbers" ARE the reality. Now, if you're implying that there's far too few trans people to justify all the hubub, no. Just no. The "hubub" is a lotta loud-mouthed right-wingers who want to point to some examples of how everything is gone awry, in the interest of scaring naive people into thinking their entire universe is on the verge of collapse. These are the people who assert that Trans people and Drag Queens are grooming kids, etc., and wanna enact laws to stop this. [Funny how these same folks don't run around screeching loudly about all the
socially accepted pedophiles in the priesthood, who've molested more kids than any army of Drag Queens could have]
Anyhoo....back to the original point: I do believe that it is unfair for many transgendered women to compete in many sports alongside biological women. I also believe trans people deserve to compete in sports - maybe they oughtta stick to archery, bowling, billiards, badminton, riflery, softball, etc....(kiddinggg...) I also think - really - there must be medical documentation that the trans athlete has undergone ___ years of hormone therapy for their new gender. There are no quick, easy answers, but here and all across society, we need to recognize that this is true:
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| There's just a lot that we have to learn, accept as reality and figure out. |
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"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 3330
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| Posted: 12/22/23 7:58 pm ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
| There are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child, its a badge of being "liberal enough".... |
Liar.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15753
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7860
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/22/23 8:02 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
I am equally bothered by the fact that there appears to be no moderator assigned to this folder is compounded by the complete inability to report posts to any moderator. |
AMEN! We used to have one, Queenie. I don't know what happened, whether she just quit or what. I wish sho'd come back agaon, but I respect her wishes if she doesn't want to. I'd volunteer, but I'm a bit hot-headed. If I were the mod, this thread would have been locked with the first post.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 3330
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| Posted: 12/22/23 8:10 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| Anyhoo....back to the original point: I do believe that it is unfair for many transgendered women to compete in many sports alongside biological women. I also believe trans people deserve to compete in sports - maybe they oughtta stick to archery, bowling, billiards, badminton, riflery, softball, etc....(kiddinggg...:P) I also think - really - there must be medical documentation that the trans athlete has undergone ___ years of hormone therapy for their new gender. |
This is something that might sound reasonable to you, but essentially adds up to being a total ban on trans athletes in sports, especially if you support denying them the right of self-determination until they reach the age of legal adulthood. If you're not allowed to legally determine that you're trans until you're 18, but puberty starts at 12 (or earlier), then by the time you've completed the proposed prerequisite years of hormone therapy, then you wouldn't have time to develop the skills to compete in any sport, and probably wouldn't have any eligibility, anyway. It's effectively the same thing as a six-week abortion ban.
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Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 12/22/23 8:16 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| The accusation that Michael doesn't tag all the 'accurate' pronouns is forgiveable. THAT is a progressive skill that we'll all have to get better at. When I talk with friends of trans kids, we both can get confused. |
First of all, fuck that. Second of all, the reason why we know this person is a troll/shit stirrer is because they're not trying to get better at it. When you get called out for misgendering someone, and you respond by doubling down on misgendering, then you're not seeking understanding, and you're not arguing in good faith, and you don't deserve the benefit of the doubt.
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Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18048
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 12/22/23 9:07 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
I am equally bothered by the fact that there appears to be no moderator assigned to this folder is compounded by the complete inability to report posts to any moderator. |
AMEN! We used to have one, Queenie. I don't know what happened, whether she just quit or what. I wish sho'd come back agaon, but I respect her wishes if she doesn't want to. I'd volunteer, but I'm a bit hot-headed. If I were the mod, this thread would have been locked with the first post. |
The percentage of people who I felt, and in many cases still feel, need to be told repeatedly to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out got high enough that if I still had admin powers this board would be pretty much entirely abandoned because all y'all shit-stirrers, unhinged ranters, eggers-on, and non-contributing gadflies would have been ban-hammered.
I think there are still mods. Somewhere. Just don't ask me who.
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Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/23/23 5:28 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
I am equally bothered by the fact that there appears to be no moderator assigned to this folder is compounded by the complete inability to report posts to any moderator. |
AMEN! We used to have one, Queenie. I don't know what happened, whether she just quit or what. I wish sho'd come back agaon, but I respect her wishes if she doesn't want to. I'd volunteer, but I'm a bit hot-headed. If I were the mod, this thread would have been locked with the first post. |
The percentage of people who I felt, and in many cases still feel, need to be told repeatedly to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out got high enough that if I still had admin powers this board would be pretty much entirely abandoned because all y'all shit-stirrers, unhinged ranters, eggers-on, and non-contributing gadflies would have been ban-hammered.
I think there are still mods. Somewhere. Just don't ask me who. |
Nope, Queenie, no mods. It says so right at the top of the forum. I wish there were because I'd sure banhammer Michael. The only other one, and it would probably have been temporary, would be someone whose initials are A. The rest of tjem are free to rant on.....
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7860
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/23/23 5:28 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think you are just trying to start something. Why don't we have a moderator here? And whatdoes this have to do with WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL? |
I am equally bothered by the fact that there appears to be no moderator assigned to this folder is compounded by the complete inability to report posts to any moderator. |
AMEN! We used to have one, Queenie. I don't know what happened, whether she just quit or what. I wish sho'd come back agaon, but I respect her wishes if she doesn't want to. I'd volunteer, but I'm a bit hot-headed. If I were the mod, this thread would have been locked with the first post. |
The percentage of people who I felt, and in many cases still feel, need to be told repeatedly to shut the fuck up and get the fuck out got high enough that if I still had admin powers this board would be pretty much entirely abandoned because all y'all shit-stirrers, unhinged ranters, eggers-on, and non-contributing gadflies would have been ban-hammered.
I think there are still mods. Somewhere. Just don't ask me who. |
Nope, Queenie, no mods. It says so right at the top of the forum. I wish there were because I'd sure banhammer Michael. The only other one, and it would probably have been temporary, would be someone whose initials are A. The rest of them are free to rant on.....
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9686
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| Posted: 01/01/24 2:21 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Also, prove to me, with valid statistics, not something off of Faux Noise, that male to female is the most common form of transgender. I think it's just the most common form YOU fear! |
| Quote: |
| The prevalence data most frequently cited come from a gender clinic in the Netherlands and demonstrate that 1 in 11,000 (.009%) per-sons are MTF, and 1 in 30,400 (.0032%) are FTM (van Kesteren et al. 1996 ) . A recent study from Singapore found 1 in 2,900 (.034%) MTFs and 1 in 8,300 (.012%) FTMs, while a study in Belgium found 1 in 12,900 (.0077%) MTFs and 1 in 33,800 (.0029%) FTMs (Winter et al. 2009 ) . The American Psychiatric Association, using GID criteria, suggested that MTFs had a 1 in 30,000 (.0077%) prevalence rate, while FTMs were 1 in 100,000 (.0029%) (APA 2000 ) . |
The Demographics of the Transgender Population
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/01/24 1:07 pm ::: |
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| That's not a lot, and I suspect even fewer of them are playing sports. Most want to be left alone to live their lives , which thy aren't getting, thanks to threads like this and certain political figures. Reb, can we please lock this thread once and for all?
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 01/01/24 2:34 pm ::: Keep your head in the sand |
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| the tally in only the last few years. 2 girls career ending injuries in high school volleyball, one of which was still suffering concussion symptoms several months later. One girl lost several teeth, and 4 more knocked out of games, 3 in one game by a very aggressive trans woman in a single rugby game in Guam. Its not fair to CIS girls to have to play against bio males, and you may hand wave it off, but those players injured in these incidents don't share your indifference to their injuries.
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Michael
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 01/01/24 2:36 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| That's not a lot, and I suspect even fewer of them are playing sports. Most want to be left alone to live their lives , which thy aren't getting, thanks to threads like this and certain political figures. Reb, can we please lock this thread once and for all? |
Silencing discussion is not the way to move forward.
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/01/24 2:41 pm ::: |
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| This is not a discussion. This is Michael's personal hobbyhorse.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15753
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 01/01/24 2:50 pm ::: |
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| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| That's not a lot, and I suspect even fewer of them are playing sports. Most want to be left alone to live their lives , which thy aren't getting, thanks to threads like this and certain political figures. Reb, can we please lock this thread once and for all? |
Silencing discussion is not the way to move forward. |
PRECISELY. Now what, exactly, is your phobia here around rational, intelligent discussion, SBT. Tfan's facts were totally supporting the assertion you challenged - various studies indicate that the MTFs outnumber the FTMs by nearly double, if not triple. Why might *we* here, on a board that deals with LGBTQ concerns in a positive way, need to shut down the thread?
One of the earlier assertions some scoffed at here was the idea that "this" is coming to a wbb team near you, sooner than later. To me, it seems pretty inevitable, but.....I'd love to be wrong.
| summertime blues wrote: |
| This is not a discussion. This is Michael's personal hobbyhorse. |
We clearly have very different definitions of what constitutes "discussion", and WTF did Michael ever do to you? He is not being irrational or castigating: he's responding to things that HAVE HAPPENED in this vein. If YOU don't like it, you're perfectly capable of ignoring it and moving on.
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Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 01/01/24 2:58 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| This is not a discussion. This is Michael's personal hobbyhorse. |
You're probably right on that. But only because one side doesn't want to take part. Discussion is usually point/counterpoint.
You seem to want point/STFU.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 2313
Location: Culver City, CA
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| Posted: 01/01/24 7:24 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| WTF did Michael ever do to you? He is not being irrational or castigating: he's responding to things that HAVE HAPPENED in this vein. |
In point of fact, some of the things that Michael is "responding to" (for example: that "there are literally whole neighborhoods in the ritzy parts of LA where almost every family has a trans child, its a badge of being 'liberal enough'") HAVE NOT HAPPENED in this, or any, vein. Michael just pulled it directly out of his butt and declared it as fact. That is, indeed, an act of irrationality, Howee.
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