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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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 Posted: 04/01/23 7:22 pm ::: |
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| I had no idea that Gabbie Marshall is Black either. Husband and I were remarking on how pretty she is. She is about as light as my adopted daughter who always refers to herself as "the whitest Black person you'll ever see" and could easily pass for white but steadfastly refuses to.
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MsProudSooner
Joined: 15 Apr 2015
Posts: 49
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04/01/23 8:24 pm ::: |
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| Many of you have probably seen South Carolina more than I have but I never thought they were as rough as Texas A&M when Vic Schaefer was Gary Blair's assistant. SC has big, strong girls but I don't think they pushed the boundaries of fouling like 'foul them early and often and hope the officials get tired of blowing their whistles' Texas A&M did.
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barryi22
Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 474
Location: In the USA
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| Posted: 04/01/23 8:45 pm ::: |
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| MsProudSooner wrote: |
| Many of you have probably seen South Carolina more than I have but I never thought they were as rough as Texas A&M when Vic Schaefer was Gary Blair's assistant. SC has big, strong girls but I don't think they pushed the boundaries of fouling like 'foul them early and often and hope the officials get tired of blowing their whistles' Texas A&M did. |
Or Louisville for that manner. Much more physical and a lot of their players have made dirty plays.
Last edited by barryi22 on 04/01/23 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7373
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 04/01/23 8:48 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
One last thing: there is no such thing as "reverse racism." People of color certainly do discriminate against white people and people of other colors than themselves. |
I think you just described reverse racism while saying it doesn't exist. |
Racism is a system of oppression based on race. White people don’t experience oppression based on race - thus you can not be racist against white people (ie - reverse racism)
You can be prejudiced. But there is a difference.
I think two things can be true.
1. Dawns team is very physical. They are. And it’s completely fine.
Other teams (UConn, Maryland) are going to be rightfully angry when South Carolina doesn’t get called for the fouls they commit, and try to get the refs on their side.
But that doesn’t mean that South Carolina is doing anything wrong. It’s just a style of play. Dawn though, needs to understand that other teams are going to lobby/complain about it. They are physical. They foul a lot and it’s not called. But they definitely aren’t dirty. Dawn isn’t teaching cheap shots. But she is teaching the age old “if you foul from the start and every possession, it won’t get called.” It’s fine. The Bucks do it. But other coaches are going to say something, and as long as it doesn’t get into dog whistles - Dawn doesn’t need to be as sensitize about that.
2. The national media and/or fans have described her team in a way that they wouldn’t describe a white team that’s physical.
If those words in particular “thug” “monkeys” or anything else racially tinged was used to describe her team - she has every right to be pissed. And if national media has done this - shame on them. They understand the impact of their words better than anyone.
The fact that Dawn was so quick to cancel the game with the racial incident suggests to me that her team is likely hearing racial insults somewhere. Although I wish she’d come right out and say what happened. |
THANK YOU. For those of us white people who are working hard to peel off the layers of racist thinking we learned by growing up in the US, the things you say are so incredibly obvious. Oxford may have chosen the definition they put in the dictionary for racism, but the only correct definition is that it is SYSTEMIC discrimination by one racial group who has all the power against other racial groups who do not hold power. In this country, governmental policies of the past century (New Deal) were SO BLATANTLY racist (they specifically excluded non white from participating in the government programs that helped white people create generational wealth) that it created an entire system.
You can squawk all you want, but it does not change the facts. As I and others have made explicitly clear, racism is a systemic power system. The word you're looking for is "prejudice" or "discrimination." And YES, the word choice is important here. As I stated in my original post, people of color can certainly be prejudiced against white people, people of color or even people of the same racial group based on the color (darkness) of their skin. But the word "racist" or "reverse racist" does not apply and is being incorrectly used.
If you don't understand this basic concept, you have some learning to do because you are speaking out of ignorance. Read and listen to what people of color have been describing instead of shooting off your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8949
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| Posted: 04/01/23 9:11 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
One last thing: there is no such thing as "reverse racism." People of color certainly do discriminate against white people and people of other colors than themselves. |
I think you just described reverse racism while saying it doesn't exist. |
Racism is a system of oppression based on race. White people don’t experience oppression based on race - thus you can not be racist against white people (ie - reverse racism)
You can be prejudiced. But there is a difference.
I think two things can be true.
1. Dawns team is very physical. They are. And it’s completely fine.
Other teams (UConn, Maryland) are going to be rightfully angry when South Carolina doesn’t get called for the fouls they commit, and try to get the refs on their side.
But that doesn’t mean that South Carolina is doing anything wrong. It’s just a style of play. Dawn though, needs to understand that other teams are going to lobby/complain about it. They are physical. They foul a lot and it’s not called. But they definitely aren’t dirty. Dawn isn’t teaching cheap shots. But she is teaching the age old “if you foul from the start and every possession, it won’t get called.” It’s fine. The Bucks do it. But other coaches are going to say something, and as long as it doesn’t get into dog whistles - Dawn doesn’t need to be as sensitize about that.
2. The national media and/or fans have described her team in a way that they wouldn’t describe a white team that’s physical.
If those words in particular “thug” “monkeys” or anything else racially tinged was used to describe her team - she has every right to be pissed. And if national media has done this - shame on them. They understand the impact of their words better than anyone.
The fact that Dawn was so quick to cancel the game with the racial incident suggests to me that her team is likely hearing racial insults somewhere. Although I wish she’d come right out and say what happened. |
THANK YOU. For those of us white people who are working hard to peel off the layers of racist thinking we learned by growing up in the US, the things you say are so incredibly obvious. Oxford may have chosen the definition they put in the dictionary for racism, but the only correct definition is that it is SYSTEMIC discrimination by one racial group who has all the power against other racial groups who do not hold power. In this country, governmental policies of the past century (New Deal) were SO BLATANTLY racist (they specifically excluded non white from participating in the government programs that helped white people create generational wealth) that it created an entire system.
You can squawk all you want, but it does not change the facts. As I and others have made explicitly clear, racism is a systemic power system. The word you're looking for is "prejudice" or "discrimination." And YES, the word choice is important here. As I stated in my original post, people of color can certainly be prejudiced against white people, people of color or even people of the same racial group based on the color (darkness) of their skin. But the word "racist" or "reverse racist" does not apply and is being incorrectly used.
If you don't understand this basic concept, you have some learning to do because you are speaking out of ignorance. Read and listen to what people of color have been describing instead of shooting off your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about. |
I'm still waiting.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 2544
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| Posted: 04/01/23 10:35 pm ::: Re: Say What, Dawn? |
Reply |
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| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| PRballer wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
Apparently, Staley went off on the media.
| Quote: |
| "We're not bar fighters. We're not thugs. We're not monkeys. We're not street fighters," Staley said. "I do think that that's sometimes brought into the game, and it hurts." |
It DID look like a bar fight at times last night. Going into the paint and rebounding was not for the faint of heart. Bodies on the floor everywhere.
The only racist words that I've seen, that I'm aware of, to describe SC were from Dawn. (I don't like that "thug" is becoming/has become a word to exclusively mean black people. In my small part of the world I see more white thugs than anything.)
“Thug” is a word with racist implications. It’s not yours to define.
| Quote: |
| Staley implored the room of media members to not judge her team by the color of their skin, but the way they play the game. |
| Quote: |
| "You may not like how we play the game, you may not like it, that's the way we play. That's the way I coach. |
| Quote: |
| "I'm not changing. We found success in it, and maybe some days like today, we end up on the losing side of the stick. But guess what? We live to see another day. We live to see the comeback next year and try to do this again because I'm not changing." |
Dawn seems to me to be the one that is always injecting race into things.
Am I wrong?? Is she right??
I realize that words are ever-changing in meaning. Dawn needs to realize that just because a word in her world has changed, that doesn't mean that it has changed just as fast in everyone's world. It seems to me, that when words change, they do it s l o w l y. Until it comes to race. She doesn't get to waive a magic wand, change a word and then tell me that I'm wrong.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaw/2023/04/01/dawn-staley-calls-out-media-bar-fight-comments-final-four/11582968002/ |
I find a lot of this and your follow up commentary fairly asinine but a few things to point out:
-before popping off about Dawn and what she is “injecting” into things maybe watch the press conference? She calls out the national media and particular reporters who have said things about her team - . 15:45 or so https://youtu.be/gKyL4gQj3Vw
-just because you don’t see the problem in using then term “thug” to describe a group of Black athletes as problematic doesn’t mean it isn’t
-this is not a new thing that’s “becoming” - it’s an old racist term and I would suggest you stop using it.
So yes, I will answer your question directly that you posed in a public forum.
You’re wrong. Dawn is right. |
1) I have watched the presser. If she wants to call out people, call THEM out. She paints with the same broads strokes that she is railing against.
2) Who gets to define the words one chooses? I'll agree that there are a few exceptions, but mostly I think that it should be the person who is using the words. You know, until Dawn puts out a dictionary of words that she finds racist.
3) I say it's new, you say it's old. I gave context (s l o w l y) for my definition of "new." What is your context for "old?"
4) What is the purpose of using "directly that you posed in a public forum"? Because where I come from, that's anti-white. (See how that works?) |
“Thug” is a word with very racist implications to a lot of people. You’re not seemingly able to grasp that. It isn’t just Dawn’s interpretation. Let it go.
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 2544
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| Posted: 04/01/23 10:36 pm ::: Re: Say What, Dawn? |
Reply |
|
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| PRballer wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
Apparently, Staley went off on the media.
| Quote: |
| "We're not bar fighters. We're not thugs. We're not monkeys. We're not street fighters," Staley said. "I do think that that's sometimes brought into the game, and it hurts." |
It DID look like a bar fight at times last night. Going into the paint and rebounding was not for the faint of heart. Bodies on the floor everywhere.
The only racist words that I've seen, that I'm aware of, to describe SC were from Dawn. (I don't like that "thug" is becoming/has become a word to exclusively mean black people. In my small part of the world I see more white thugs than anything.)
“Thug” is a word with racist implications. It’s not yours to define.
| Quote: |
| Staley implored the room of media members to not judge her team by the color of their skin, but the way they play the game. |
| Quote: |
| "You may not like how we play the game, you may not like it, that's the way we play. That's the way I coach. |
| Quote: |
| "I'm not changing. We found success in it, and maybe some days like today, we end up on the losing side of the stick. But guess what? We live to see another day. We live to see the comeback next year and try to do this again because I'm not changing." |
Dawn seems to me to be the one that is always injecting race into things.
Am I wrong?? Is she right??
I realize that words are ever-changing in meaning. Dawn needs to realize that just because a word in her world has changed, that doesn't mean that it has changed just as fast in everyone's world. It seems to me, that when words change, they do it s l o w l y. Until it comes to race. She doesn't get to waive a magic wand, change a word and then tell me that I'm wrong.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaw/2023/04/01/dawn-staley-calls-out-media-bar-fight-comments-final-four/11582968002/ |
I find a lot of this and your follow up commentary fairly asinine but a few things to point out:
-before popping off about Dawn and what she is “injecting” into things maybe watch the press conference? She calls out the national media and particular reporters who have said things about her team - . 15:45 or so https://youtu.be/gKyL4gQj3Vw
-just because you don’t see the problem in using then term “thug” to describe a group of Black athletes as problematic doesn’t mean it isn’t
-this is not a new thing that’s “becoming” - it’s an old racist term and I would suggest you stop using it.
So yes, I will answer your question directly that you posed in a public forum.
You’re wrong. Dawn is right. |
1) I have watched the presser. If she wants to call out people, call THEM out. She paints with the same broads strokes that she is railing against.
2) Who gets to define the words one chooses? I'll agree that there are a few exceptions, but mostly I think that it should be the person who is using the words. You know, until Dawn puts out a dictionary of words that she finds racist.
3) I say it's new, you say it's old. I gave context (s l o w l y) for my definition of "new." What is your context for "old?"
4) What is the purpose of using "directly that you posed in a public forum"? Because where I come from, that's anti-white. (See how that works?) |
“Thug” is a word with very racist implications to a lot of people. You’re not seemingly able to grasp that. It isn’t just Dawn’s interpretation. Let it go.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8949
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| Posted: 04/01/23 11:26 pm ::: Re: Say What, Dawn? |
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| Some just don't want to understand.
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15740
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 04/01/23 11:50 pm ::: |
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(Well, how can anyone resist this Rebkell's *bar fight*  )
Just some thoughts and observations after reading many thoughtful comments here.
1. One of the things I like here (on this *old-fashioned* board) is that MOST of us here have never met each other, and don't always know who's black, white, asian, etc. Likewise, we hail from all parts of the country, urban, rural, etc. We ourselves represent a diverse group.
2. Racism is real, and we didn't invent it. It's in the human DNA. You cannot name ONE civilization on this planet that didn't grow and evolve without enslaving others and viewing them as 'less than'. However, we're talking about Here and Now. Ok.
3. Dawn is correct to speak up in defense of her team; CVS certainly did during the "Imus" debacle. For one thing, Dawn grew up steeped in Philly street ball. Her instinct to fight back (pun intended) is natural. Where I think she might have been more....effective(?)....in her cause, was to avoid the vague generalizations, based on second-hand gossip. Somebody *heard* something said....really? And also....to not have appeared so "victim-like" in her discussion. I think she was a bit overwrought from the stinging defeat - understandable - so it wasn't the ideal time to delve deeply into it all.... maybe just make a comment for the record that "....my team IS physical, but we DON'T play dirty, and we're NOT thugs". Period. Then take it up later, on a different platform. I think Geno's comments after their game were more offensive, m'self. And she does hear a lot of that, no doubt. But the presser was not the ideal forum for a dive into our country's racist problems.
[I can only guess what might be discussed here if Iowa had lost, and Bluder commented on the physicality phactor, and that Czinano told her, "It was like a bar brawl!" ]
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Racism is a system of oppression based on race. White people don’t experience oppression based on race - thus you can not be racist against white people (ie - reverse racism) |
Ummm, ya....people CAN experience that. There are neighborhoods in Philly that I'll never walk through wearing a bright t-shirt that says, "Black Lives Don't Matter", and other ones I'll never walk through with a placard saying, "Learn OUR Language, Chica!". I could eloquently tell you what it's like to experience racism against a white person. 
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| 2. The national media and/or fans have described her team in a way that they wouldn’t describe a white team that’s physical. |
Fans? Prolly....But the National Media? I can't believe that until I see a real, concrete example.
In conclusion I'd say that our varying perspectives on all this reflect our own diversity in experiences lived; most ... no, ALL of us know racism is real. I also feel fortunate to live in a society where we CAN call it out, protest it and deal with it. Ask the Uighurs in China if they get any of that privilege, or even the Tutsi people of Rwanda, when the Hutus were in the majority. We've got a looong way to go, but I believe we're at least moving forward, not backward.
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"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7373
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 04/02/23 12:18 am ::: |
Reply |
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| Howee wrote: |
(Well, how can anyone resist this Rebkell's *bar fight* )
Just some thoughts and observations after reading many thoughtful comments here.
1. One of the things I like here (on this *old-fashioned* board) is that MOST of us here have never met each other, and don't always know who's black, white, asian, etc. Likewise, we hail from all parts of the country, urban, rural, etc. We ourselves represent a diverse group.
2. Racism is real, and we didn't invent it. It's in the human DNA. You cannot name ONE civilization on this planet that didn't grow and evolve without enslaving others and viewing them as 'less than'. However, we're talking about Here and Now. Ok.
3. Dawn is correct to speak up in defense of her team; CVS certainly did during the "Imus" debacle. For one thing, Dawn grew up steeped in Philly street ball. Her instinct to fight back (pun intended) is natural. Where I think she might have been more....effective(?)....in her cause, was to avoid the vague generalizations, based on second-hand gossip. Somebody *heard* something said....really? And also....to not have appeared so "victim-like" in her discussion. I think she was a bit overwrought from the stinging defeat - understandable - so it wasn't the ideal time to delve deeply into it all.... maybe just make a comment for the record that "....my team IS physical, but we DON'T play dirty, and we're NOT thugs". Period. Then take it up later, on a different platform. I think Geno's comments after their game were more offensive, m'self. And she does hear a lot of that, no doubt. But the presser was not the ideal forum for a dive into our country's racist problems.
[I can only guess what might be discussed here if Iowa had lost, and Bluder commented on the physicality phactor, and that Czinano told her, "It was like a bar brawl!" ]
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Racism is a system of oppression based on race. White people don’t experience oppression based on race - thus you can not be racist against white people (ie - reverse racism) |
Ummm, ya....people CAN experience that. There are neighborhoods in Philly that I'll never walk through wearing a bright t-shirt that says, "Black Lives Don't Matter", and other ones I'll never walk through with a placard saying, "Learn OUR Language, Chica!". I could eloquently tell you what it's like to experience racism against a white person.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| 2. The national media and/or fans have described her team in a way that they wouldn’t describe a white team that’s physical. |
Fans? Prolly....But the National Media? I can't believe that until I see a real, concrete example.
In conclusion I'd say that our varying perspectives on all this reflect our own diversity in experiences lived; most ... no, ALL of us know racism is real. I also feel fortunate to live in a society where we CAN call it out, protest it and deal with it. Ask the Uighurs in China if they get any of that privilege, or even the Tutsi people of Rwanda, when the Hutus were in the majority. We've got a looong way to go, but I believe we're at least moving forward, not backward. |
Howee, Howee, Howee. Racism and prejudice based on race are not the same thing. Period. See Mercfan re the difference being racism is a SYSTEMIC power relationship based on race. Prejudice is one person of any race mistreating a person of another race because of their race. With the Hutus and the Tutsis, mistreatment is not based on race, but on tribal affiliation.
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Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15740
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 04/02/23 12:30 am ::: |
Reply |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Howee, Howee, Howee. Racism and prejudice based on race are not the same thing. Period. See Mercfan re the difference being racism is a SYSTEMIC power relationship based on race. Prejudice is one person of any race mistreating a person of another race because of their race. With the Hutus and the Tutsis, mistreatment is not based on race, but on tribal affiliation. |
Umm....I understand these things. Racism, by the way, isn't a simple binary choice thing - there are degrees of it. Now, the African nations we called out are technically of the same race (just the way we and most latinos are predominantly caucasian, for example), but ongoing oppression and subjugation turned into genocide....that's pretty 'racist'. We can be racist toward members of our own race, it doesn't hafta be variant races.
But all that is splitting hairs. I still think that most of us here cannot deny we've got a long-standing and ongoing problem with it.
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Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
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| Posted: 04/02/23 12:47 am ::: |
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| undersized_post wrote: |
I would to kindly point out that Gabbie Marshall is Black. She is relatively light skinned and white passing at times -- which of course has its privileges (colorism is a nasty thing in itself) -- but please get your facts straight before you start assuming things about people's identities.
In fact, two of Iowa's six most important players (I would argue) are Black. |
Of the 3 players on Iowa's team who are Black/biracial, two of them are from Iowa. Someone mentioned in another post something about the possible challenges that Bluder may have in recruiting African American players to Iowa. Whether Bluder doesn't recruit AA players much or does but doesn't get any/ many to commit, it does seem that she has had some success with Black players from the state (Stuelke and Gyamfi).
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
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| Posted: 04/02/23 1:10 am ::: |
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[quote="readyAIMfire53"][quote="Howee"]
2. Racism is real, and we didn't invent it. It's in the human DNA. You cannot name ONE civilization on this planet that didn't grow and evolve without enslaving others and viewing them as 'less than'. However, we're talking about Here and Now. Ok.
I can name one. The great Inca civilization didn't practice slavery. Also, even though many civilizations did, many didn't necessarily consider the people they enslaved as inherently inferior. Europeans didn't initially consider Africans inferior but as the desire for free labor grew and slavery/profits grew, Europeans developed all kinds of theories and "science" to justify the enslavement of Africans.
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 429
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| Posted: 04/02/23 1:33 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| I had no idea that Gabbie Marshall is Black either. Husband and I were remarking on how pretty she is. She is about as light as my adopted daughter who always refers to herself as "the whitest Black person you'll ever see" and could easily pass for white but steadfastly refuses to. |
Does the first sentence have anything to do with the second or is that a non-sequitur?
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wnbafan
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 04/02/23 8:56 am ::: |
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| PG4ever wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
2. Racism is real, and we didn't invent it. It's in the human DNA. You cannot name ONE civilization on this planet that didn't grow and evolve without enslaving others and viewing them as 'less than'. However, we're talking about Here and Now. Ok. |
I can name one. The great Inca civilization didn't practice slavery. Also, even though many civilizations did, many didn't necessarily consider the people they enslaved as inherently inferior. Europeans didn't initially consider Africans inferior but as the desire for free labor grew and slavery/profits grew, Europeans developed all kinds of theories and "science" to justify the enslavement of Africans. |
Umm, they kinda DID, according to U of TX, but it was quite a different model than what evolved in the States.
Though at its peak, American slavery was probably the most oppressive of any civilization, as far as I know we're the only society that legislated an end to it. Which brings us to modern-day racism here. But that's a rabbit-hole for another time.
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"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
Posts: 8949
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| Posted: 04/02/23 9:03 am ::: |
Reply |
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| Howee wrote: |
(Well, how can anyone resist this Rebkell's *bar fight* )
Just some thoughts and observations after reading many thoughtful comments here.
1. One of the things I like here (on this *old-fashioned* board) is that MOST of us here have never met each other, and don't always know who's black, white, asian, etc. Likewise, we hail from all parts of the country, urban, rural, etc. We ourselves represent a diverse group.
2. Racism is real, and we didn't invent it. It's in the human DNA. You cannot name ONE civilization on this planet that didn't grow and evolve without enslaving others and viewing them as 'less than'. However, we're talking about Here and Now. Ok.
3. Dawn is correct to speak up in defense of her team; CVS certainly did during the "Imus" debacle. For one thing, Dawn grew up steeped in Philly street ball. Her instinct to fight back (pun intended) is natural. Where I think she might have been more....effective(?)....in her cause, was to avoid the vague generalizations, based on second-hand gossip. Somebody *heard* something said....really? And also....to not have appeared so "victim-like" in her discussion. I think she was a bit overwrought from the stinging defeat - understandable - so it wasn't the ideal time to delve deeply into it all.... maybe just make a comment for the record that "....my team IS physical, but we DON'T play dirty, and we're NOT thugs". Period. Then take it up later, on a different platform. I think Geno's comments after their game were more offensive, m'self. And she does hear a lot of that, no doubt. But the presser was not the ideal forum for a dive into our country's racist problems.
[I can only guess what might be discussed here if Iowa had lost, and Bluder commented on the physicality phactor, and that Czinano told her, "It was like a bar brawl!" ]
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| Racism is a system of oppression based on race. White people don’t experience oppression based on race - thus you can not be racist against white people (ie - reverse racism) |
Ummm, ya....people CAN experience that. There are neighborhoods in Philly that I'll never walk through wearing a bright t-shirt that says, "Black Lives Don't Matter", and other ones I'll never walk through with a placard saying, "Learn OUR Language, Chica!". I could eloquently tell you what it's like to experience racism against a white person.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| 2. The national media and/or fans have described her team in a way that they wouldn’t describe a white team that’s physical. |
Fans? Prolly....But the National Media? I can't believe that until I see a real, concrete example.
In conclusion I'd say that our varying perspectives on all this reflect our own diversity in experiences lived; most ... no, ALL of us know racism is real. I also feel fortunate to live in a society where we CAN call it out, protest it and deal with it. Ask the Uighurs in China if they get any of that privilege, or even the Tutsi people of Rwanda, when the Hutus were in the majority. We've got a looong way to go, but I believe we're at least moving forward, not backward. |
Well said, Howee. Thank you. Only thing that I will address is that when CVS spoke out against Imus, we know what was said and who said it. I'm fine with that and will stand behind her all the way. As you said, that moves things forward, not backward.
I'm not saying that Dawn's friend in the media didn't hear something. They may have been sitting at the same table with the speaker in a quiet library and heard everything crystal clearly. They may have just be walking by in a noisy bar and heard "street fight," "bar fight," "thug," and didn't realize that a hockey game was on TV. IDK.
Yes, she should say something. Make contact with the person and find out what they were saying and how it was intended. Maybe invite them to SC on your dime (you've got 30,000,000 of them). Invite them to spend some time with your team (or the members of the team that are willing), speak to the team, get to know your team.
I'm afraid that the method that she took will only cause resentment in the speaker and maybe not make things worse, but not move them forward. Take the time to educate the speaker, work with them, and since they have a nationwide media platform, they in turn can educate others.
We learn by putting ourselves in other people's shoes and spending time with them. Don't just tell them that they are wrong. Be a teacher and educate!
Now I'm going for a walk in the woods and get ready for gametime snacks!!!!
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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Hoops9092
Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 1639
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| Posted: 04/02/23 9:30 am ::: |
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I don't have a problem with Dawn defending her success and style of play.
But it seems like everyone thinks they overdue it with their physicality, including Tara's comments that "this isn't basketball" and same with Geno's comments.
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 602
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| Posted: 04/02/23 10:21 am ::: Re: Say What, Dawn? |
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| PRballer wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| PRballer wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
Apparently, Staley went off on the media.
| Quote: |
| "We're not bar fighters. We're not thugs. We're not monkeys. We're not street fighters," Staley said. "I do think that that's sometimes brought into the game, and it hurts." |
It DID look like a bar fight at times last night. Going into the paint and rebounding was not for the faint of heart. Bodies on the floor everywhere.
The only racist words that I've seen, that I'm aware of, to describe SC were from Dawn. (I don't like that "thug" is becoming/has become a word to exclusively mean black people. In my small part of the world I see more white thugs than anything.)
“Thug” is a word with racist implications. It’s not yours to define.
| Quote: |
| Staley implored the room of media members to not judge her team by the color of their skin, but the way they play the game. |
| Quote: |
| "You may not like how we play the game, you may not like it, that's the way we play. That's the way I coach. |
| Quote: |
| "I'm not changing. We found success in it, and maybe some days like today, we end up on the losing side of the stick. But guess what? We live to see another day. We live to see the comeback next year and try to do this again because I'm not changing." |
Dawn seems to me to be the one that is always injecting race into things.
Am I wrong?? Is she right??
I realize that words are ever-changing in meaning. Dawn needs to realize that just because a word in her world has changed, that doesn't mean that it has changed just as fast in everyone's world. It seems to me, that when words change, they do it s l o w l y. Until it comes to race. She doesn't get to waive a magic wand, change a word and then tell me that I'm wrong.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaw/2023/04/01/dawn-staley-calls-out-media-bar-fight-comments-final-four/11582968002/ |
I find a lot of this and your follow up commentary fairly asinine but a few things to point out:
-before popping off about Dawn and what she is “injecting” into things maybe watch the press conference? She calls out the national media and particular reporters who have said things about her team - . 15:45 or so https://youtu.be/gKyL4gQj3Vw
-just because you don’t see the problem in using then term “thug” to describe a group of Black athletes as problematic doesn’t mean it isn’t
-this is not a new thing that’s “becoming” - it’s an old racist term and I would suggest you stop using it.
So yes, I will answer your question directly that you posed in a public forum.
You’re wrong. Dawn is right. |
1) I have watched the presser. If she wants to call out people, call THEM out. She paints with the same broads strokes that she is railing against.
2) Who gets to define the words one chooses? I'll agree that there are a few exceptions, but mostly I think that it should be the person who is using the words. You know, until Dawn puts out a dictionary of words that she finds racist.
3) I say it's new, you say it's old. I gave context (s l o w l y) for my definition of "new." What is your context for "old?"
4) What is the purpose of using "directly that you posed in a public forum"? Because where I come from, that's anti-white. (See how that works?) |
“Thug” is a word with very racist implications to a lot of people. You’re not seemingly able to grasp that. It isn’t just Dawn’s interpretation. Let it go. |
The only time I have ever heard "thug" used in any racial connotation was by black rappers living "the thug life". Here in the midwest it still is synonimous with goon and brute, no racial connotations at all. Its someone that uses brawn over brain and tends to be someone that uses physical force to impose their will on others. NHL hockey teams still keep a designated goon or thug on their rosters to go out and fight on behalf of their star if they feel the other team is roughing them up. IF someone did in fact use "monkey" then Dawn needed to call them out by name. Otherwise this just feels like Staley lashing out over rumors again like she did painting all of BYU as racist without any proof over something that disputably never even happened.
UI am certainly all for calling out racism where ever it still lurks, but these broad brush ad hominen(sp?) attacks by Staley IMO hurt the cause far more than they help as they make people feel its all about hype/deflection/attention seeking rather than there being a real issue. Much the same way the Duke Lacrosee and UVA false rape allegations make it so much harder for women on campus to be taken seriously over sexual harassment.
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Michael
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7848
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 04/02/23 11:56 am ::: |
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Actually, "thug" is used a lot by racists--especially the kind of people my late son used to refer to in polite company as "saltine-Americans"(you figure it out) and my adopted daughter sometimes calls "wypipo". So there's that. (Incidentally, we have a black cat of rather nasty disposition in our stray cat jail who came in with the name of Thug from his previous owners. We're changing it to Tyson.)
Aside from that, I don't think Dawn's players played dirty at all. They just played hard defense. Fouls were called. That's fine. It was SEC ball. And Iowa solved their defense. I expect to see possibly some nastier D from Kim's outfit. Now if you want to talk dirty ball, Louisville has a couple of players that definitely fit that bill.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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PG4ever
Joined: 14 May 2020
Posts: 429
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| Posted: 04/02/23 12:23 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| PG4ever wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
2. Racism is real, and we didn't invent it. It's in the human DNA. You cannot name ONE civilization on this planet that didn't grow and evolve without enslaving others and viewing them as 'less than'. However, we're talking about Here and Now. Ok. |
I can name one. The great Inca civilization didn't practice slavery. Also, even though many civilizations did, many didn't necessarily consider the people they enslaved as inherently inferior. Europeans didn't initially consider Africans inferior but as the desire for free labor grew and slavery/profits grew, Europeans developed all kinds of theories and "science" to justify the enslavement of Africans. |
Umm, they kinda DID, according to U of TX, but it was quite a different model than what evolved in the States.
Though at its peak, American slavery was probably the most oppressive of any civilization, as far as I know we're the only society that legislated an end to it. Which brings us to modern-day racism here. But that's a rabbit-hole for another time. |
I read the info at the UT link but what the Inca civilization had is not generally referred to as slavery. But as you noted, even here where it is called slavery it was nothing like the U.S. "brand." The more important point I think we would agree on is the absolutely devastating and lasting effects of U.S. slavery.
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huskiemaniac
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 1049
Location: NE CT
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| Posted: 04/02/23 12:23 pm ::: |
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I'm a white guy who grew up in an all-white dinky town and now lives in a 99% white town. (i'm an island of Blue in a sea of MagaSnowflake Red, but that's a story for later). I have personally never given, nor have ever used, the word "thug" w/ a racial connotation. That's MY reality. I realize that people DO give that word, and words like it, a racial aspect. So, when Staley, who seems to be one of the most senisitive personalities in coaching, reacts the way she does, it's understandable.
SC plays a long-standing style of SEC women's basketball which emphasizes athleticism/speed/strength (great for defense and rebounding) over basketball skills such as shooting, movement, offensive flow. Nothing new, imo. (FWIW, back when Louisville upset Baylor, I railed against Walz' pathetic hack-a-Griner defensive tactic. Imo, it was a disgrace. In fact, it was the catalyst for that "freedom of movement", or whatever it was called, memo by the NCAA that attempted to address such "thugball" strategy.) I've never liked him since. Excellent coach though, who actually whines more than Staley. More than anyone, I think.
I don't know who called SC's style of play thugball and/or if they had a racial intent in mind.
I do know Staley will use it effectively as a recruiting tool, with individual recruits, and maybe even on a national sympathy we-were-robbed-of-our- rightful-2022-23 championship-because-the-refs-wouldn't-let-us-play-our-way-because-we're-not-white, tour. I guarantee she won't mention their inability to shoot worth a sh/t (39% 30-77), (29% 4-20), (69.2% 9-13).
So all this sh/t exists simultaneously- yes some/manytimes there is a racist component to the comments of many whites re: black players/coaches, and yes, Staley sometimes overreacts to those comments as if they are all racist. This effing endless quagmire we live in is obviously the result of the scourge of slavery/racism our country practiced/practices. Sadly, it will eff us up FOREVER, imo.
I must, however, call out Staley for her "boycott BYU" kneejerk reaction. When I first heard of the situation, I thought, hey, good for Dawn, eff those mormon racists. (my kneejerk reaction). Then later, after investigations concluded it didn't happen, what did Dawn do? She doubled-down a la Al Sharpton re: Tawana Brawley. Why, dude?
I do believe Sharpton and Staley are genuinely good people.
ALL this sh/t has got to end, beginning with the racism. I doubt it ever will. 
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bcdawg04
Joined: 12 Apr 2016
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 04/02/23 12:30 pm ::: |
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When Coach Staley talks about encountering racism, it's because she is experiencing racial discrimination. The racism is there, and she is feeling it. As a person of color, I have experienced racial discrimination. However, I am not Black, so my ability to empathize with her in this situation is limited. For the most part, I am not judged the way she is judged. I am not judged the way her team is judged.
If I am unwilling to listen to what she is trying to say here - if I deny that this is her experience, if I say she is just being overly sensitive - well, that doesn't make me the KKK, but it does make me complicit in upholding institutional racism.
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huskiemaniac
Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 1049
Location: NE CT
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| Posted: 04/02/23 1:08 pm ::: |
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| bcdawg04 wrote: |
When Coach Staley talks about encountering racism, it's because she is experiencing racial discrimination. The racism is there, and she is feeling it. As a person of color, I have experienced racial discrimination. However, I am not Black, so my ability to empathize with her in this situation is limited. For the most part, I am not judged the way she is judged. I am not judged the way her team is judged.
If I am unwilling to listen to what she is trying to say here - if I deny that this is her experience, if I say she is just being overly sensitive - well, that doesn't make me the KKK, but it does make me complicit in upholding institutional racism. |
IF this is a reference to my post and you are characterizing me as someone who has said Staley is "just being overly sensitive " and that I am "complicit in upholding institutional racism.", we need futher discussion. (Preferably not on the board).
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15740
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 04/02/23 1:43 pm ::: |
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| bcdawg04 wrote: |
| If I am unwilling to listen to what she is trying to say here - if I deny that this is her experience, if I say she is just being overly sensitive - well, that doesn't make me the KKK, but it does make me complicit in upholding institutional racism. |
Dawn cut her teeth on Philly street ball. Tara did not. Kim did not. Nor did Lisa Bluder. Angel Reese came up through a tough brand of Baltimore street ball. Caitlin and Monica did not. I don't think Cameron did, either.
Is it fair for ANY ONE of the above-named individuals to expect that the entire basketball universe - players, coaches, fans, media - view all basketball games and teams (and reactions to them) as they perceive them to be? I don't think so.
As stated earlier, Dawn is right to call out these kinds of things in defense of her team. But she seems to headline in a LOT in these 'race' matters....far more than I've heard about any other coach like, say, Pokey Chatman, CViv, Carolyn Peck, Niele Ivey, Kenny Brooks, etc. Hence (maybe) the 'oversensitive' perception...?
[For the record, I'VE never thought of her teams as being any more extremely physical than a lotta other teams we know. In fact, I always thought she kvetched at refs a lot about her own kids getting hacked, etc.]
Perception is....maybe only 10% of reality, but it's 100% of what we feel and react to.
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Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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