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CalwbbFan
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bcdawg04
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 Posted: 08/06/23 1:40 pm ::: |
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Good article, thanks for sharing. On Thursday of last week, I was chatting with a friend (a UCLA grad) about how great the Pac-12 had been in Olympic sports and how much I'll miss that. On Friday, I was lamenting the loss of Stanford as a conference foe. Stanford pushed much of the rest of the Pac-12 to invest more in women's sports.
Football is the driver in this mess, and at this point those four remaining schools might be wondering if it's even worth having football programs.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
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| Posted: 08/06/23 3:38 pm ::: |
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As a P12 (RIP) WBB fan, one of the things that hurts most about this dissolution is that, arguably, the "original sin" that led us to this point was the Pac-12 conference choosing to retain the distribution rights to its own conference network (rather than licensing them to a partner like ESPN or FOX)... a choice it made, in part, because the former arrangement would allow the conference to better platform the Olympic sports (including, of course, women's basketball), while the latter arrangement would likely result in a much heavier focus on football and mens' basketball content, to the relative exclusion of sports like WBB. That choice has helped to give Pac-12 WBB a decade in the sun. But that choice also delivered the member schools less money than was received by schools in the SEC and the Big 10 (which chose differently). That financial discrepancy is what ultimately led us to this week's sad death of a conference that I grew up loving.
I'm genuinely heartsick about this, and ashamed of my alma mater's culpability in bringing us to this point. It feels like an awful dream.
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CalwbbFan
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| Posted: 08/06/23 9:18 pm ::: |
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Let's face it, college football has nothing to do with "college" and everything to do with cash. It's really a licensing deal....networks license school name, colors and mascot and put a team on the field that is semi-pro, if not pro. It's not what college sports should be....Money corrupts and frankly I've lost all interest in the game.
I do feel most upset for the Olympic sports where athletes played mostly for the love of the game. I hope Cal, Stanford, OSU and WSU can find a niche for the teams to continue to compete and succeed.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 08/07/23 2:47 pm ::: |
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| patsweetpat wrote: |
As a P12 (RIP) WBB fan, one of the things that hurts most about this dissolution is that, arguably, the "original sin" that led us to this point was the Pac-12 conference choosing to retain the distribution rights to its own conference network (rather than licensing them to a partner like ESPN or FOX)... a choice it made, in part, because the former arrangement would allow the conference to better platform the Olympic sports (including, of course, women's basketball), while the latter arrangement would likely result in a much heavier focus on football and mens' basketball content, to the relative exclusion of sports like WBB. That choice has helped to give Pac-12 WBB a decade in the sun. But that choice also delivered the member schools less money than was received by schools in the SEC and the Big 10 (which chose differently). That financial discrepancy is what ultimately led us to this week's sad death of a conference that I grew up loving.
I'm genuinely heartsick about this, and ashamed of my alma mater's culpability in bringing us to this point. It feels like an awful dream. |
This was going to happen whether UCLA made the move or not, there was already talk of Arizona being interested in the Big 12, the SEC already got Oklahoma and Texas, and for years the higher ups in multiple conferences and talked about breaking up the currently conference system and building 4 16 team major conferences. And as things stand I'm sure UCLA is glad it made the move when it did rather than being in a situation now without a conference (having to join a mid major conference as scraps) after the fall out.
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CalwbbFan
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 08/07/23 5:27 pm ::: |
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| They can just change it to the "All-Coast Conference". Won't even have to change their initials. Maybe one day they'll even invite UConn.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 08/07/23 7:16 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| They can just change it to the "All-Coast Conference". Won't even have to change their initials. Maybe one day they'll even invite UConn. |
If FSU leaves the ACC, how much good football would be left? Miami? I don't follow much college football outside of the Big Ten. Not sure who the good teams are anymore.
Maybe they could get a couple of teams from Great Lakes states (Northwestern, Toledo maybe) and then they really would have all coasts covered!
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 08/08/23 7:04 am ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| patsweetpat wrote: |
As a P12 (RIP) WBB fan, one of the things that hurts most about this dissolution is that, arguably, the "original sin" that led us to this point was the Pac-12 conference choosing to retain the distribution rights to its own conference network (rather than licensing them to a partner like ESPN or FOX)... a choice it made, in part, because the former arrangement would allow the conference to better platform the Olympic sports (including, of course, women's basketball), while the latter arrangement would likely result in a much heavier focus on football and mens' basketball content, to the relative exclusion of sports like WBB. That choice has helped to give Pac-12 WBB a decade in the sun. But that choice also delivered the member schools less money than was received by schools in the SEC and the Big 10 (which chose differently). That financial discrepancy is what ultimately led us to this week's sad death of a conference that I grew up loving.
I think the remaining PAC teams need to run, not walk, but RUN to the B12 and beg for admittance. That puts the B12 up to 16 members and makes it a much easier time scheduling and the divisions are easy to do. It would still be an increase of 10-15 million per school depending on how much flex the B12 deal has (we already know that the other 4 schools did NOT lower the payout per school because of flex in the contract). Even taking a reduced share for a few years as long as its 70% or greater is break even or a win for the remaining 4 schools and really their only true chance to stay in a power conference.
I'm genuinely heartsick about this, and ashamed of my alma mater's culpability in bringing us to this point. It feels like an awful dream. |
This was going to happen whether UCLA made the move or not, there was already talk of Arizona being interested in the Big 12, the SEC already got Oklahoma and Texas, and for years the higher ups in multiple conferences and talked about breaking up the currently conference system and building 4 16 team major conferences. And as things stand I'm sure UCLA is glad it made the move when it did rather than being in a situation now without a conference (having to join a mid major conference as scraps) after the fall out. |
The remaining PAC teams should run, not walk, RUN to the B12 offices and beg to be let in, even at 70% share which would be break even. It makes the B12 16 teams and easy divisions already created and easier scheduling.
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Michael
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
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| Posted: 08/08/23 6:06 pm ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
| The remaining PAC teams should run, not walk, RUN to the B12 offices and beg to be let in, even at 70% share which would be break even. It makes the B12 16 teams and easy divisions already created and easier scheduling. |
FWIW, the Big 12 will already be at 16 teams when the 2024-25 season begins. If that conference were to accept the remaining 4 PAC teams, it'd bring the Big 12 conference's member total up to 20.
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okstateguy
Joined: 18 Feb 2021
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| Posted: 08/09/23 5:18 pm ::: |
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| I think Stanford will get a deal with the B1G similar to what ND has with the ACC. The other 3 are just castaways in this cutthroat game
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okstateguy
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 08/09/23 8:23 pm ::: |
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I like Muffet's idea.
| Quote: |
| “Time to stop whining about where college football is headed and figure out how to save the rest of college sports,” McGraw tweeted. “Let football break with the NCAA and form their own league and let college basketball and the Olympic sports continue the conference model. There has to be another way to preserve all that is good in college athletics and give our student athletes the experience they deserve.” |
https://www.on3.com/teams/notre-dame-fighting-irish/news/notre-dame-fighting-irish-womens-basketball-coach-muffet-mcgraw-ncaa-rule-change-proposal-conferences-big-12-big-ten/
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"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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Ex-Ref
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Ex-Ref
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| Posted: 08/12/23 4:53 am ::: |
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Another great article on the realignment debacle.
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| A new piece of information Friday from longtime Portland-based columnist John Canzano suggests that less than a year ago, the Pac-12 could have signed a media rights deal with ESPN for $30 million per school. According to Canzano’s source, commissioner George Kliavkoff was instructed by his league’s presidents to turn down that offer and counter at $50 million. |
| Quote: |
There will be volumes written and documentary films made about how college sports got so off track during this century, but so much of it boils down to administrators becoming convinced — and thus convincing fans — that the financial scoreboard was more important than winning and losing games.
As recently as a dozen years ago, West Virginia was a perennial top-25 team that sometimes got into the national title conversation because it could win the Big East. It has made more money in the Big 12 but been utterly irrelevant on the field.
Nebraska, for all its problems, was often winning nine and 10 games before it joined the Big Ten. It has had seven losing seasons in the last eight years.
Texas A&M has spent hundreds of millions of dollars to SEC-ify itself and is still waiting for the payoff. |
| Quote: |
| More often than not, this has been the pattern of conference realignment: Those who leave to chase dollars tend to win fewer games and become less of a factor nationally than they were before. |
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2023/08/11/pac-12-doomed-leaders-arrogance-envy-big-12/70577317007/
_________________
"Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 08/12/23 5:49 pm ::: |
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| Ex-Ref wrote: |
I like Muffet's idea.
| Quote: |
| “Time to stop whining about where college football is headed and figure out how to save the rest of college sports,” McGraw tweeted. “Let football break with the NCAA and form their own league and let college basketball and the Olympic sports continue the conference model. There has to be another way to preserve all that is good in college athletics and give our student athletes the experience they deserve.” |
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This, x1000.
Though I've never aligned my wbb fandom with one conference alone, it's still heartbreaking to see this shit show unfolding because of football which - as someone said above - isn't even a collegiate sport anymore.
The only (even remotely) bright spot for me? Oregon will be playing at Penn State and MD, where I can actually go see them in action, and I can see their games on the BTN (hopefully).
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okstateguy
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| Posted: 08/12/23 11:40 pm ::: |
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At this point I kind of hope one of 2 things happen to finally end all of this nonsense. Just an aside, I'm not a fan of either, but it's very obvious the networks don't value the same things we as fans do, but also may be reaching a breaking point in terms of financial payout load and content.
1. The networks destroy the ACC, but then realize they can't possibly afford it all, so agree to consolidate all of the conferences into regions under a shared media deal that includes FOX/ESPN, regional networks, streaming services, and other 3rd parties for any remaining content. Regions something like:
West:
Texas, TAMU, Baylor, TCU, Texas Tech, OU, OK State, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Arizona State, USC, UCLA, Stanford, Washington, Oregon
Midwest:
Kansas, Kansas State, Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa, Iowa St, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern, Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan St, Ohio State, Notre Dame
Southeast:
LSU, Arkansas, Ole Miss, Miss State, Tennessee, Vandy, Kentucky, GA Tech, Alabama, Auburn, Georgia, FSU, Florida, Miami, South Carolina, Clemson
East:
UNC, NC State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Pitt, Penn State, Syracuse, Louisville, Maryland, Rutgers, Boston College, Cincy, WVU, UCONN, Wake Forest, Duke
2. The ACC/Big 12 merge into a super-conference of their own that trims off the less desirables in terms of media appeal or education(in the case of West Virginia). 1 media deal, 2 divisions, 2 commissioners, 2 networks, and 2 olympic-sport only member with a football scheduling agreement. There would be a scheduling agreement/challenge between the two divisions in all sprots. Divisions would be:
West: Commish Yormack
Arizona, Arizona St, Utah, BYU, Colorado, OK State, Texas Tech, TCU, Baylor, Houston, Kansas, Kansas State (Stanford as Olympic sport only)
East: Commish Phillips
FSU, Miami, Clemson, UNC, NC State, Virginia, VA Tech, Pitt, Louisville, Syracuse, Boston College, GA Tech (Notre Dame as Olympic sport only)
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okstateguy
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 08/14/23 12:33 pm ::: |
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| okstateguy wrote: |
| I think Stanford will get a deal with the B1G similar to what ND has with the ACC. The other 3 are just castaways in this cutthroat game |
Stanford has zero chance of getting a B1G invite. They add zero dollars to the pot, so even at a half share they just reduce everyone else's payout, and you won't get a majority of presidents to agree to cut their payouts by 8% to give charity to Stanford. Iowa St has begged for years to be let into the B1G, same with Missouri before they finally got into the SEC. Louisville made no doubts about their desire to join the B1G, and were politely rebuffed that they met none of the criteria for conference membership. Those criteria are, in approximate order:
AAU membership (only ND has EVER been offered without this, and they just attained AAU status)
bring in a new state to the B1G network deal. Kentucky doesn't have the populace to make UL viable as a member. Stanford adds nothing as all of Cali is taken in with the USC/UCLA move.
Be a major research institution. Another stumbling block for ND that kept them out in the 90s when ND asked to join but was told they would NOT be included in the BT academic arm as their research facilities were not up to snuff.
Schools that still would fit with the BT that are highly desirable possible future acquisitions:
ND
UNC
UVa
Miami
TxA&M ( highly unlikely as SEC buyouts are extreme and the increase in B1G money would take years to make up the loss, BUT TxA&M was screwed over by the SEC in the Tx and OU deal as they were specifically excluded fromt eh talks and told when it came time to vote that EVERYONE but them would vote yes, so they might as well make it unanimous. A&M joined the SEC to get away from Tx, so they may jump again just out of spite)
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Michael
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 08/14/23 4:14 pm ::: |
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| Michael wrote: |
Stanford has zero chance of getting a B1G invite. They add zero dollars to the pot, so even at a half share they just reduce everyone else's payout, and you won't get a majority of presidents to agree to cut their payouts by 8% to give charity to Stanford. Iowa St has begged for years to be let into the B1G, same with Missouri before they finally got into the SEC. Louisville made no doubts about their desire to join the B1G, and were politely rebuffed that they met none of the criteria for conference membership. Those criteria are, in approximate order:
AAU membership (only ND has EVER been offered without this, and they just attained AAU status) |
Interesting analysis, Michael. I can only take it as *true* - I know > nothing re: such dealings.
2 questions:
Is it correct to view all of these criteria you named as soley based on Football? Please forgive if this is a naive question.
Also....AAU: That's NOT "Amateur Athletic...." anything, is it?
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/14/23 6:25 pm ::: |
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| Association of American Universities is AAU in this case. It's focused on the academic and research side.
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Queenie
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| Posted: 08/14/23 6:26 pm ::: |
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| Does football even need conferences at this point? Let 'em all go independent, sort out their own schedules, base the bowls and the playoff on the polls. Then reorganize conferences based on the other sports.
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Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 08/15/23 12:42 am ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| Does football even need conferences at this point? Let 'em all go independent, sort out their own schedules, base the bowls and the playoff on the polls. Then reorganize conferences based on the other sports. |
The College Football League.
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Michael
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 08/15/23 8:00 am ::: Im this case AAU |
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AAU stands for American association of universities, a group 0f 60-70 of the most prestigious and most research intensive universities in the country. It includes all the Ivy League, al the Big Ten but Nebraska (who was an AAU member when they joined) and about half the ACC and former PAC12 schools.
Football tends to drive the SEC expansion, for the Big Ten it seems to be a much smaller consideration than Can you be a good memeber of the BT academic arm, which is the clearing house of over a billion dollars in research grants a year shared out to the member schools and what money you can bring to the table with state population in your "viewing area" which is why Rutgers got an invite because they bring the NYC market. Louisville and parts of northern KY already fall into the Big Ten viewership area because of their promimity to IU and OSU, further dilluting any hope Louisville would have of BT invite.
The BT academic arm dates back to a year or two within the founding of the conference in the early 1900s, (60 to 70 years before any other conference formed an academic arm) and still has one of the original BT members that dropped athletics as part of the academic arm, University of Chicago. The academic arm has as much say in who gets an invite as the athletic arm does, and can veto schools for application if they do not have the credentials, or give them only athletic membership but deny them the academic membership, which happened with Notre Dame in the 90s and caused ND to bakc out of the negotiations.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 08/15/23 11:07 am ::: Re: Im this case AAU |
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| Michael wrote: |
| AAU stands for American association of universities, a group 0f 60-70 of the most prestigious and most research intensive universities in the country. It includes all the Ivy League, al the Big Ten but Nebraska (who was an AAU member when they joined) and about half the ACC and former PAC12 schools. |
69 universities in the U.S. and two in Canada.
https://www.aau.edu/sites/default/files/AAU-Files/Who-We-Are/AAU%20Member%20Universities%20listed%20by%20year_updated%202023.pdf
While there is much aspirational talk among UConn fans about UConn possibly being invited to the Big 10, there is no chance of that because, aside from its weak football team, it is not a member of the AAU and the Big 10 only invites AAU universities. |
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 08/15/23 3:50 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| Does football even need conferences at this point? Let 'em all go independent, sort out their own schedules, base the bowls and the playoff on the polls. Then reorganize conferences based on the other sports. |
That almost makes sense.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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