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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18031
Location: Queens
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 Posted: 05/16/23 9:54 pm ::: |
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I love how the WNBPA is in their feelings about Vegas's first-round pick being Thanos-snapped out of existence. No, it doesn't mean someone doesn't get a job, it means Vegas brings one more free agent into camp.
I'm suspicious of how energetically the league pursued its investigation into the Aces' cap circumvention. But honestly, I'm a Liberty fan and this house I live in is looking awfully glassy right now.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66927
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 05/16/23 10:12 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| I love how the WNBPA is in their feelings about Vegas's first-round pick being Thanos-snapped out of existence. No, it doesn't mean someone doesn't get a job, it means Vegas brings one more free agent into camp. |
It means one more player at the rookie minimum instead of the first rounder salary.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18031
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 05/16/23 10:25 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| I love how the WNBPA is in their feelings about Vegas's first-round pick being Thanos-snapped out of existence. No, it doesn't mean someone doesn't get a job, it means Vegas brings one more free agent into camp. |
It means one more player at the rookie minimum instead of the first rounder salary. |
because we all know how committed the WNBPA is to actually getting players paid, right?
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 05/16/23 10:37 pm ::: |
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by then we hope to have two more teams so several more jobs.
also, players play for less than they are worth in order to get a shot at a championship. It happens and doesn't mean something nefarious is necessarily going on. Not to say it ain't, just that it's not a for-sure thing.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 508
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| Posted: 05/16/23 10:59 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
by then we hope to have two more teams so several more jobs.
also, players play for less than they are worth in order to get a shot at a championship. It happens and doesn't mean something nefarious is necessarily going on. Not to say it ain't, just that it's not a for-sure thing. |
Yes, I am sure that this is the line that all these “underpaid” LV players are peddling, but look at Hamby. Last year when she was free agent, Dearica took $30-40k per year less than she could have gotten elsewhere. Well here we do know the league found her getting “impermissible payments”. Chelsea Gray, similarly took way less from LV in multi year deal as free agent. Do u really think Hamby was only one given illegal payments?.. ..or consider Clark (already has 2 titles). Do u really think she chose to take $60-80k pay cut to play as backup on LV (Sea for sure would have paid her big)? Then look at Stokes (just got her ring) who is taking $60k paycut. What a coincidence that only Hamby (not on Davis payroll) is only case uncovered. I could go on b/c Plum, Riq, Young and Parker also fit the suspiciously low salary category. Funny how the Aces are only team in W history with a plethora of players taking way below their market value.
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WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016
Posts: 1423
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| Posted: 05/17/23 7:44 am ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
by then we hope to have two more teams so several more jobs.
also, players play for less than they are worth in order to get a shot at a championship. It happens and doesn't mean something nefarious is necessarily going on. Not to say it ain't, just that it's not a for-sure thing. |
Yes, I am sure that this is the line that all these “underpaid” LV players are peddling, but look at Hamby. Last year when she was free agent, Dearica took $30-40k per year less than she could have gotten elsewhere. Well here we do know the league found her getting “impermissible payments”. Chelsea Gray, similarly took way less from LV in multi year deal as free agent. Do u really think Hamby was only one given illegal payments?.. ..or consider Clark (already has 2 titles). Do u really think she chose to take $60-80k pay cut to play as backup on LV (Sea for sure would have paid her big)? Then look at Stokes (just got her ring) who is taking $60k paycut. What a coincidence that only Hamby (not on Davis payroll) is only case uncovered. I could go on b/c Plum, Riq, Young and Parker also fit the suspiciously low salary category. Funny how the Aces are only team in W history with a plethora of players taking way below their market value. |
I hear you and is it just me or does it seem like there has been more "gymnastics" around player salaries under the new CBA? If I remember correctly, they nearly doubled the max but barely raised the cap; hence, front offices have had to find ways to squeeze players in and remain competitive. By no stretch of the imagination do I believe Vegas is the 1st, last or only team who may have employed "creative" means to build their teams. Shucks, Seattle had a few vets making under $75k last year and there was barely a peep about it. I think that like in other leagues, teams have found ways to get things done (soft caps are absolutely a way).
Btw, here is Dearica's interview after the league findings were released:
https://twitter.com/johnwdavis/status/1658613983820259328
All of this is so upsetting and frustrating all around. I'll continue rooting for players 1st and teams 2nd.
The W likes to maintain a "clean" image and have always tried to squelch drama. I understand it to a point because the public commentary about the league is: we don't care, go make me a sandwich, lower the rim, that dunk was weak, they're too soft, too hard, can't play, not physical, too physical, not athletic, too butch, too black....blah, blah blah! So rather than allowing the players to be who and what they are (strong, competitive athletes) and the league to be what it is: a business that can be harsh, the league tries to appeal to certain demographics and promote it as nice, clean, empowering and family friendly...and it is all of that, but it's so much more and can be marketed as such.
One thing this year's NCAA tournament showed is that people tune in to watch drama, personality, competition, rivalries etc. Have we had all of that before? Yes, but they've typically opted to hide it and discourage it. Social media has made it harder to control players, narratives, etc. and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Am I saying that I want more drama and fodder for people who think women have limited value and the league should not even exist? Do I want the players who have nothing to do with this, etc. to be inundated with questions about this? Absolutely not, but I believe it is time for the league to really lean into what it is and not hide from the good and the bad.
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 8862
Location: Niagara Falls
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| Posted: 05/17/23 8:26 am ::: |
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| The wnba.com site still has no mention of the findings. No press release posted from either the League or Player’s Association. #WeakSauce
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 508
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| Posted: 05/17/23 5:42 pm ::: |
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| This Hamby interview is an example of the poor journalism (ass kissing goody two shoes)) that exists throughout coverage of women's bball. No hard hitting reporting allowed. The Ace's situation is not rocket science. Why does no one ask Hamby what was the nature of the "impermissible payments" found by the WNBA? Depending upon her response, then ask the Ace's players. As for the WNBA investigation, why did commissioner Cathy not just ask to see player's tax returns? Guarantee that under the table payments were not in cash (that would be a felony), and, therefore, there is likely to be a paper trail.
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bcdawg04
Joined: 12 Apr 2016
Posts: 566
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 05/17/23 6:14 pm ::: |
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If I understand this correctly...players receiving money or some kind of compensation from third-parties is not, in itself, a violation of the CBA. The violation is when the team is directly involved in setting up said payment, the player does negligible work for the third-party, and it is in conjunction with the player accepting a lower salary than she otherwise would have signed for.
Hamby admitted that she was offered outside compensation in such a manner. The league claims that it cannot prove that any other player was - if any other player was, then the Aces, the third-party, and the player have all simply said that the Aces were not directly involved in the third-party payment in conjunction with her newly signed contract (if they were asked). Tax returns cannot prove if the Aces arranged for the third-party to pay the player.
As for the discrimination that Hamby faced from Hammon and the Aces...it's just awful. I support Hamby. I support women.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 05/17/23 8:05 pm ::: |
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| bcdawg04 wrote: |
If I understand this correctly...players receiving money or some kind of compensation from third-parties is not, in itself, a violation of the CBA. The violation is when the team is directly involved in setting up said payment, the player does negligible work for the third-party, and it is in conjunction with the player accepting a lower salary than she otherwise would have signed for.
Hamby admitted that she was offered outside compensation in such a manner. The league claims that it cannot prove that any other player was - if any other player was, then the Aces, the third-party, and the player have all simply said that the Aces were not directly involved in the third-party payment in conjunction with her newly signed contract (if they were asked). Tax returns cannot prove if the Aces arranged for the third-party to pay the player.
As for the discrimination that Hamby faced from Hammon and the Aces...it's just awful. I support Hamby. I support women. |
This is disingenuous way of looking at the situation. If, say, some LV business was paying several LV players salaries for some no show job, it would be huge evidence there was a process to beat the salary cap (reason income tax returns would speak volumes). Look at Stokes: last year she was making something like $160k; now she signs for half that. Suppose we find out she is collecting serious $ from some LV business.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 05/17/23 11:26 pm ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| This is disingenuous way of looking at the situation. If, say, some LV business was paying several LV players salaries for some no show job, it would be huge evidence there was a process to beat the salary cap (reason income tax returns would speak volumes). |
That's not how evidence works: you'd have to be able to prove a link between the third party and Mark Davis and/or a minority partner.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
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| Posted: 05/18/23 1:22 am ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| This is disingenuous way of looking at the situation. If, say, some LV business was paying several LV players salaries for some no show job, it would be huge evidence there was a process to beat the salary cap (reason income tax returns would speak volumes). |
That's not how evidence works: you'd have to be able to prove a link between the third party and Mark Davis and/or a minority partner. |
This is not a criminal investigation. In every professional sport, the commissioner has broad powers.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 05/18/23 1:34 am ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| This is disingenuous way of looking at the situation. If, say, some LV business was paying several LV players salaries for some no show job, it would be huge evidence there was a process to beat the salary cap (reason income tax returns would speak volumes). |
That's not how evidence works: you'd have to be able to prove a link between the third party and Mark Davis and/or a minority partner. |
This is not a criminal investigation. In every professional sport, the commissioner has broad powers. |
It may not be a criminal investigation, but there has to be a connection to the team setting up the deal, or else that basically makes all endorsement deals illegal.
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canadaball
Joined: 24 May 2013
Posts: 508
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| Posted: 05/18/23 2:25 am ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| This is disingenuous way of looking at the situation. If, say, some LV business was paying several LV players salaries for some no show job, it would be huge evidence there was a process to beat the salary cap (reason income tax returns would speak volumes). |
That's not how evidence works: you'd have to be able to prove a link between the third party and Mark Davis and/or a minority partner. |
This is not a criminal investigation. In every professional sport, the commissioner has broad powers. |
It may not be a criminal investigation, but there has to be a connection to the team setting up the deal, or else that basically makes all endorsement deals illegal. |
You are missing the point that the league already has made a finding of "impermissible benefits" when it comes to Hamby. That is the reason for loss of draft pick. Based on some reports, the W never even interviewed other Aces players (they did talk to Cambage). It sounds like they did not want to delve very deeply into this issue.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 05/18/23 3:27 am ::: |
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| canadaball wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| canadaball wrote: |
| This is disingenuous way of looking at the situation. If, say, some LV business was paying several LV players salaries for some no show job, it would be huge evidence there was a process to beat the salary cap (reason income tax returns would speak volumes). |
That's not how evidence works: you'd have to be able to prove a link between the third party and Mark Davis and/or a minority partner. |
This is not a criminal investigation. In every professional sport, the commissioner has broad powers. |
It may not be a criminal investigation, but there has to be a connection to the team setting up the deal, or else that basically makes all endorsement deals illegal. |
You are missing the point that the league already has made a finding of "impermissible benefits" when it comes to Hamby. That is the reason for loss of draft pick. Based on some reports, the W never even interviewed other Aces players (they did talk to Cambage). It sounds like they did not want to delve very deeply into this issue. |
The only source that is saying they didn’t talk to Aces players is Becky Hammon, that I’ve seen, and it is also being reported by the media that the league didn’t talk to Liz Cambage like Becky Hammon said they did.
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taco-man
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
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| Posted: 05/18/23 3:04 pm ::: |
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The league blasted out an email in celebration of the kickoff of season 27. Five players are pictured; none are Aces - but Dearica Hamby is on there.
In the text, there is no mention of the defending champs Las Vegas Aces, but it does highlight "2022 WNBA Champion Dearica Hamby."
I just found this interesting.
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