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snlMINAJ



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PostPosted: 09/13/22 12:11 pm    ::: Maya Moore career Reply Reply with quote

i was just watching a maya moore career highlight video on YouTube, not that i didn't watch 95%+ of her UConn games, but holy cow is she BY FAR the best offensive player ever.

size for size, undoubtedly as good as any NBA player, less the dunking.

truly in awe after about the first 3 minutes


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/13/22 12:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't know how to put Moore's career in the "proper" context, because she's never played a game in her career on a team that wasn't stacked. Not in high school, not in college, not in the pros. And she's pretty much the only great player that you can say that about. And while I respect her as a person for making the decision to step away from the sport to dedicate herself to pursuing social justice, as a basketball player, I'm always going to be skeptical that her decision to walk away from basketball just happened to coincide with what was expected at the time to be the start of Minnesota's rebuild.

Personally, I've always felt like she was overrated: give her the squads that Catch, or Angel, or current favorite board pariah Charles had to play with, and tell me how many championships she has?



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snlMINAJ



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PostPosted: 09/13/22 12:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

that was one thing i thought of when watching this reel - her senior year at UConn, i was thinking how did she just not dominate 1-on-1 all the way to the title.

that's i guess probably only time she wasn't on a 'stacked' team.


johnjohnW



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PostPosted: 09/13/22 12:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
I don't know how to put Moore's career in the "proper" context, because she's never played a game in her career on a team that wasn't stacked. Not in high school, not in college, not in the pros. And she's pretty much the only great player that you can say that about. And while I respect her as a person for making the decision to step away from the sport to dedicate herself to pursuing social justice, as a basketball player, I'm always going to be skeptical that her decision to walk away from basketball just happened to coincide with what was expected at the time to be the start of Minnesota's rebuild.

Personally, I've always felt like she was overrated: give her the squads that Catch, or Angel, or current favorite board pariah Charles had to play with, and tell me how many championships she has?


Did she though? That's how she sold it initially but I'd say this was for her own personal reasons, not larger social justice. Nothing wrong with the decision but what has she done for social justice since securing the freedom of her now husband?


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PostPosted: 09/17/22 1:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

johnjohnW wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
I don't know how to put Moore's career in the "proper" context, because she's never played a game in her career on a team that wasn't stacked. Not in high school, not in college, not in the pros. And she's pretty much the only great player that you can say that about. And while I respect her as a person for making the decision to step away from the sport to dedicate herself to pursuing social justice, as a basketball player, I'm always going to be skeptical that her decision to walk away from basketball just happened to coincide with what was expected at the time to be the start of Minnesota's rebuild.

Personally, I've always felt like she was overrated: give her the squads that Catch, or Angel, or current favorite board pariah Charles had to play with, and tell me how many championships she has?


Did she though? That's how she sold it initially but I'd say this was for her own personal reasons, not larger social justice. Nothing wrong with the decision but what has she done for social justice since securing the freedom of her now husband?


So much of social Justice work is done the background, quiet work, legal filings, etc. I think just bc we haven’t heard much of her activities that doesn’t mean things aren’t happening with her.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/sports/basketball/maya-moore-jonathan-irons-release.html

There’s a NYTimes article from May of 2021. From this article: “They plan to use storytelling to inspire change. Podcasts, speeches, films. Anything to “shine a light on injustice,” Moore said, starting with their own story. An ESPN documentary will feature their battle for Irons’s release and their life together.”



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johnjohnW



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PostPosted: 09/17/22 2:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
johnjohnW wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:
I don't know how to put Moore's career in the "proper" context, because she's never played a game in her career on a team that wasn't stacked. Not in high school, not in college, not in the pros. And she's pretty much the only great player that you can say that about. And while I respect her as a person for making the decision to step away from the sport to dedicate herself to pursuing social justice, as a basketball player, I'm always going to be skeptical that her decision to walk away from basketball just happened to coincide with what was expected at the time to be the start of Minnesota's rebuild.

Personally, I've always felt like she was overrated: give her the squads that Catch, or Angel, or current favorite board pariah Charles had to play with, and tell me how many championships she has?


Did she though? That's how she sold it initially but I'd say this was for her own personal reasons, not larger social justice. Nothing wrong with the decision but what has she done for social justice since securing the freedom of her now husband?


So much of social Justice work is done the background, quiet work, legal filings, etc. I think just bc we haven’t heard much of her activities that doesn’t mean things aren’t happening with her.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/sports/basketball/maya-moore-jonathan-irons-release.html

There’s a NYTimes article from May of 2021. From this article: “They plan to use storytelling to inspire change. Podcasts, speeches, films. Anything to “shine a light on injustice,” Moore said, starting with their own story. An ESPN documentary will feature their battle for Irons’s release and their life together.”


I wish them the best and am very happy for them. I think their story is inspiring and I hope it does help others. Criminal justice reform is something I care deeply about and I would love to see Maya become a very vocal and out front advocate, should she wish to do so.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/17/22 2:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scullyfu wrote:
So much of social Justice work is done the background, quiet work, legal filings, etc. I think just bc we haven’t heard much of her activities that doesn’t mean things aren’t happening with her.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/sports/basketball/maya-moore-jonathan-irons-release.html

There’s a NYTimes article from May of 2021. From this article: “They plan to use storytelling to inspire change. Podcasts, speeches, films. Anything to “shine a light on injustice,” Moore said, starting with their own story. An ESPN documentary will feature their battle for Irons’s release and their life together.”


Thank you, scullyfu, for what you've written and for posting this article.

No one--whether in the public eye or not--should have their political activism judged from afar as if they're doing nothing because we haven't heard about it in the media. Maya Moore or anyone not famous could be meeting with public officials and others who are influential, lobbying them through writing or phone calls, attending demonstrations in the crowd rather than as a speaker, making financial donations, speaking to school groups and community organizations, etc. etc. etc.

Moreover--because I know and have known some people very much in the public eye--some prefer to engage in QUIET activism because when they do something publicly they are attacked by cynical critics for using their fame to help good causes.

What you've said about social justice work is right on the mark.



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johnjohnW



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PostPosted: 09/17/22 7:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
scullyfu wrote:
So much of social Justice work is done the background, quiet work, legal filings, etc. I think just bc we haven’t heard much of her activities that doesn’t mean things aren’t happening with her.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/17/sports/basketball/maya-moore-jonathan-irons-release.html

There’s a NYTimes article from May of 2021. From this article: “They plan to use storytelling to inspire change. Podcasts, speeches, films. Anything to “shine a light on injustice,” Moore said, starting with their own story. An ESPN documentary will feature their battle for Irons’s release and their life together.”


Thank you, scullyfu, for what you've written and for posting this article.

No one--whether in the public eye or not--should have their political activism judged from afar as if they're doing nothing because we haven't heard about it in the media. Maya Moore or anyone not famous could be meeting with public officials and others who are influential, lobbying them through writing or phone calls, attending demonstrations in the crowd rather than as a speaker, making financial donations, speaking to school groups and community organizations, etc. etc. etc.

Moreover--because I know and have known some people very much in the public eye--some prefer to engage in QUIET activism because when they do something publicly they are attacked by cynical critics for using their fame to help good causes.

What you've said about social justice work is right on the mark.


I disagree. Why is this so sacred that it cannot be scrutinized? She very well may be engaged in social justice work. However, you don't know that, just as I don't know that she is. She engaged in a very high profile campaign to get Mr. Irons released whilst keeping their relationship private (which is their prerogative). Since disclosing their relationship, however, it doesn't appear that she is engaged in social activism outside of church activities. If she is content with that, good on her. I'm just a bit disappointed because I thought she was going to be doing more than just working to get her future spouse released. What she did is incredible. But I think it's disingenuous to say she walked away from her basketball career to pursue social activism when it doesn't appear so. Perhaps she is working behind the scenes. Good for her and I hope her efforts are fruitful. I'd love to see her do more, is all I'm saying. Which of course she is not obligated to do. She has a unique and compelling narrative that deserves to be heard and could affect change for a lot of people who don't happen to be her husband.

I guess I'm just cynical like that.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/17/22 7:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Dear johnjohnw,

Since you've made such an issue about how perhaps Maya Moore isn't doing enough, why don't you tell us about YOUR political activism? Perhaps it'll inspire the rest of us to do more.



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PostPosted: 09/17/22 8:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
I don't know how to put Moore's career in the "proper" context, because she's never played a game in her career on a team that wasn't stacked. Not in high school, not in college, not in the pros.


Interesting point. Now, I can think of at least 2 teams she was on that weren't necessarily 'stacked': As a #1 draftee, she went to a lottery pick team that had struggled, and in her senior year of college at the FF (the only time I got to see her live), when they lost to Notre Dame, who then lost to Texas A&M for the championship.

What I CAN say about her, from what I've seen of her over the years, is that she was always The Best Player, even on a stacked team. Even at the one FF, she was The Best Player Of Any on all the teams there - this included kids like Skyler Diggins, Nneka & Chiney Ogwumike, etc. I believe that, with more longevity, she might have given Diana a run for GOAT.

All that said, I have huge admiration for her in the way she could step away from something that so utterly defined her universe (basketball) and direct that energy into such a positive and necessary cause.

Also, altruism aside, who knows where her head was righteously at? Could she tell that, if she went another 5-10 years, she'd have no knees left? Did she decide that there was really nothing left to 'win' or accomplish in the game, so switch lanes for a New Life Adventure? I've no doubt she was as financially independent as she needed to be, with her lucrative career, endorsements, etc. I can only view her choice as very admirable.



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johnjohnW



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PostPosted: 09/17/22 9:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Bob Lamm wrote:
Dear johnjohnw,

Since you've made such an issue about how perhaps Maya Moore isn't doing enough, why don't you tell us about YOUR political activism? Perhaps it'll inspire the rest of us to do more.


You're confusing my point. I'm not saying she should "do more" so much as I think it hasn't been proven that she left her career to pursue social justice work. She very well could be doing things silently but that's a generous position since that's not how this was all initially presented and there doesn't seem to be much evidence of that. She's not obligated to do more and she is very much entitled to leave behind any career she wants to build her family and work to set her future husband free. I just don't think it's fair to categorize her in the same realm as people who work day in and day out for selfless causes when releasing Mr. Irons was not a selfless cause.

I actually don't do any social justice work. I also don't have the platform of Maya Moore. I still support causes ideologically and vote accordingly. This isn't a pissing contest.


Bob Lamm



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PostPosted: 09/17/22 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
All that said, I have huge admiration for her in the way she could step away from something that so utterly defined her universe (basketball) and direct that energy into such a positive and necessary cause.

Also, altruism aside, who knows where her head was righteously at? Could she tell that, if she went another 5-10 years, she'd have no knees left? Did she decide that there was really nothing left to 'win' or accomplish in the game, so switch lanes for a New Life Adventure? I've no doubt she was as financially independent as she needed to be, with her lucrative career, endorsements, etc. I can only view her choice as very admirable.


Great, Howee. Totally with you in my admiration for Maya Moore.

And I encourage everyone who has the time and good health to become active on the issue of criminal justice reform or many other social justice issues (including within the sports world). There's so much that any of us can do, even from home on our computers, tablets, or phones.



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PostPosted: 09/18/22 1:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'm not even a Lynx fan, but honestly, it still bothers me how she basically kept everyone – the franchise, the Lynx fans alike – in limbo by not just announcing her retirement outright at any point in these past four years, even now as the fans have accepted that she probably will never return. I mean, her letter way back when she first said she was taking time off was called "The Shift" – a Hint with a capital H, looking back. (Interestingly enough, that letter made no mention of Jonathan Irons nor fighting for racial justice in general – nor did it thank the fans, which also bothers me even if it may not be a huge thing.)

And it's not like you can't un-retire either.

No, she doesn't owe anyone anything. But on some level, I just feel like leaving anyone hanging or giving them false hope that they may still come back seems almost mean, even if that's not the intent at all. No doubt in my mind that the landscape of the League would be pretty different if she were still playing. By today or Tuesday, it'll have fully been her fourth-straight missed season in a row. She has now started a family of her own – which, good for her! – and may look to continue adding on to it. Just make the announcement. Give this situation – and your career – the closure it deserves.


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PostPosted: 09/18/22 5:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Interesting point. Now, I can think of at least 2 teams she was on that weren't necessarily 'stacked': As a #1 draftee, she went to a lottery pick team that had struggled, and in her senior year of college at the FF (the only time I got to see her live), when they lost to Notre Dame, who then lost to Texas A&M for the championship.


Your mileage obviously varies, but her senior year at Connecticut she was on a team with four other WNBA draft picks; AFAIC, that's as close to "stacked" as makes no odds. The fact that they didn't win the championship that year does not refute that. Her rookie season she was drafted by a team that had four other players who had previously been All-Stars.



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PostPosted: 09/18/22 6:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That's certainly true: her senior year year was hardly shabby, having gotten to the FF. But I do recall that they had some injury concerns, etc., and they weren't their *best* at the tournament. Yet.....there they were. Yes, she's certainly been on a blessed career pathway.



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PostPosted: 09/18/22 7:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

johnjohnW wrote:
I think it hasn't been proven that she left her career to pursue social justice work.


In my opinion, JJW, yours is the better interpretation of the available evidence provided by Maya Moore.

In the letter linked by Stormeo, Moore clearly states her goals for her immediate future:

Quote:
my purpose is to know Jesus and to make Him known.


Quote:
My focus in 2019 . . . will instead be on the people in my family, as well as on investing my time in some ministry dreams that have been stirring in my heart for many years.


Quote:
my no for the 2019 pro season allows me to say yes to my family and faith family like I never have before.


Where did this notion that she left baskebtall to pursue "social justice" come from? Well, it appeared in a post on RebKell written by Silky, who seemed to use the term simply as his own shorthand for her non-basketball goals. Immediately, that shorthand description transformed into gospel that Moore left basketball to pursue a career in social justice.

Then Bob Lamm transmuted the term into "political activism", and went on to pontificate about the merits of political activism and to demand proof of it from other members here.

So far, I see no evidence written or spoken by Moore that she left basketball to pursue a career in either social justice or political activism. She spoke in terms of pursuing religious values and family relationships.

We do know from external sources that she did work with lawyers for a long time to secure the release of one imprisoned man, whom she married a few weeks after his release in 2020. In February 2022, Moore and her husband had a baby and, two months ago, they told Good Morning America that "the trio love 'dancing, making up songs' and 'tummy time.'"

That doesn't sound like a career in social justice or political activism, either. It sounds like a person pursuing happy family relationships. And it wouldn't surprise me if her strong Christian faith remains a big part of her family and personal life.
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PostPosted: 09/18/22 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Moore looked over the basketball landscape and said to herself that there are no more worlds to conquer. RETIRED.🥱



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PostPosted: 09/18/22 9:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
That's certainly true: her senior year year was hardly shabby, having gotten to the FF. But I do recall that they had some injury concerns, etc., and they weren't their *best* at the tournament. Yet.....there they were. Yes, she's certainly been on a blessed career pathway.


Maya's Moore's senior UConn team was preseason number 1, lost only one game during the regular season, beat Dook by 30+ plus to make it to the FF. They did lose to Notre Dame, a team they had beaten three times earlier that season. Looking at that roster, I will say that would've been arguably her greatest college accomplishment if she had willed that team to the national title.


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PostPosted: 09/19/22 12:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
I don't know how to put Moore's career in the "proper" context, because she's never played a game in her career on a team that wasn't stacked. Not in high school, not in college, not in the pros. And she's pretty much the only great player that you can say that about. And while I respect her as a person for making the decision to step away from the sport to dedicate herself to pursuing social justice, as a basketball player, I'm always going to be skeptical that her decision to walk away from basketball just happened to coincide with what was expected at the time to be the start of Minnesota's rebuild.

Personally, I've always felt like she was overrated: give her the squads that Catch, or Angel, or current favorite board pariah Charles had to play with, and tell me how many championships she has?


I think she's among the very best and probably would've been the best ever had her focus stayed in basketball. As is, her WNBA resume is matched by very few. In regards to her always having the most talent, I think this is largely true but Maya was almost always the reason why her teams were able to push it to the next level.

When she joined UCONN in 2007-08, they were coming on 3 straight Final Four misses. Several of the top teams that year returned almost their entire lineups or all but 1-2 key players (including 3 Final Four teams in Tennessee, Rutgers, and LSU). UCONN adds Moore and she catapulted them to become #1 in the country for most of the year and favorites entering the Final Four, where they ultimately got upset by UCONN. No one else on UCONN really improved much from the year before, the reason why the team was so good was because of Maya. The next 3 years Maya was the clear top dog in women's college basketball, winning POY awards all 3 years and going 114-2.

Her senior year she had talented teammates, but you can't compare those teammates as pros to how they were during the 2010-11 season. Freshman Stef Dolson was significantly heavier and not at all developed, Bria Hartley had a nice freshman season but was hardly a standout and Tiffany Hayes was extremely unreliable as a second scorer and no-showed in the Final Four.

Entering the pros Moore joined Minnesota who returned Whalen/Brunson/Augustus after going 13-21 with the lineup a year prior. With Maya in the fold they go 27-7 and win a title, and proceed to win 3 more and play in 6 of 7 finals.

So yes, she had talented teammates but I don't think it's a strong excuse to label her as overrated You give any great player the teammates of Catchings/Charles/Angel and I don't think they win. Every great whose won titles had rosters that were stacked:
-Taurasi had Cappie/BG/Taylor (and if we're being honest Phoenix has had more underachieving years in DT's era than overachieving ones)

-Cooper had Swoopes/Thompson at their peak

-Jackson had Bird/Swin Cash at their peak

-Stewart has had Loyd at her peak, plus Howard/Bird

-Parker had Nneka at her peak

I could go on, but basically unless you're Tamika Catchings in 2012, it's impossible to win a title in the WNBA without having really really good teammates, so I don't think that can be held against Maya.

Fact is Maya is hard to rank on an all time scale since we didn't get a full body of work from her. We only saw her play with stellar teammates and I wish she stuck around for 2018-present so we could see her play with a less talented crew, but from what we were able to see, she was almost always the best player on those stacked teams and is maybe the best winners in the history of the sport.


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PostPosted: 09/19/22 3:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

barryi22 wrote:
When she joined UCONN in 2007-08, they were coming on 3 straight Final Four misses. Several of the top teams that year returned almost their entire lineups or all but 1-2 key players (including 3 Final Four teams in Tennessee, Rutgers, and LSU)...


I don't know how you came to the conclusion that postseason success is the principal determinant of whether or not a team is stacked, but it isn't. Teams underachieve all the time, for a myriad of reasons. So I'm not accepting "three missed Final Fours" as refutation of the claim that the teams were stacked, especially when Auriemma got every top prospect that he wanted (with one notable exception... and, technically, he got her, too).


Quote:
Entering the pros Moore joined Minnesota who returned Whalen/Brunson/Augustus after going 13-21 with the lineup a year prior. With Maya in the fold they go 27-7 and win a title, and proceed to win 3 more and play in 6 of 7 finals.


She was drafted by a team that returned three players who had been All-Stars and/or All-WNBA caliber players before Maya Moore ever set foot on a WNBA court, and then added a fourth. Like I said before, teams underachieve all the time, and the lack of success doesn't have any particular bearing on whether the team was loaded or not.

Quote:
So yes, she had talented teammates but I don't think it's a strong excuse to label her as overrated You give any great player the teammates of Catchings/Charles/Angel and I don't think they win.


You give Maya Moore the teammates of Catchings/Charles/McCoughtry, and I don't think that she even gets as far as they did, which is why I think she's overrated.

Quote:
Every great whose won titles had rosters that were stacked:


This is not true. Lisa Leslie + a bunch of high-level role players =/= "stacked," and neither does Parker/Ogwumike + a bunch of high-level role players

I think arguing over whether or not the '03 Shock were "stacked" is splitting hairs but, whether they were or not, I do think that there is a significant difference between a team of young players developing together on the same curve, and one young player going to a team of veterans/finished products.


Quote:
-Taurasi had Cappie/BG/Taylor (and if we're being honest Phoenix has had more underachieving years in DT's era than overachieving ones)


The difference between Taurasi and Moore is that we've seen Taurasi on a team with subpar teammates. And, more importantly, we've seen Taurasi win a playoff series that her team was not favored to win. Maya Moore never played on a team where she was surrounded by subpar teammates; nobody even knows what that would have looked like. What we do know is that during Moore's tenure in the WNBA, the Lynx never won a playoff series that they weren't favored to win, and lost two series in which they were.



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PostPosted: 09/20/22 1:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't know how you came to the conclusion that postseason success is the principal determinant of whether or not a team is stacked, but it isn't. Teams underachieve all the time, for a myriad of reasons. So I'm not accepting "three missed Final Fours" as refutation of the claim that the teams were stacked, especially when Auriemma got every top prospect that he wanted (with one notable exception... and, technically, he got her, too).



Quote:
She was drafted by a team that returned three players who had been All-Stars and/or All-WNBA caliber players before Maya Moore ever set foot on a WNBA court, and then added a fourth. Like I said before, teams underachieve all the time, and the lack of success doesn't have any particular bearing on whether the team was loaded or not.


I'm not refuting that her teams weren't stacked with talent, but pointing out that Maya was the catalyst for getting those teams to the next level, and both times those teams underachieved prior to her being there. She was the reason why UCONN and the Lynx elevated to a new stratosphere.


Quote:
You give Maya Moore the teammates of Catchings/Charles/McCoughtry, and I don't think that she even gets as far as they did, which is why I think she's overrated.


Quote:
Maya Moore never played on a team where she was surrounded by subpar teammates; nobody even knows what that would have looked like.


The second statement proves this whole argument is irrelevant since she never played with weak rosters.



Quote:
This is not true. Lisa Leslie + a bunch of high-level role players =/= "stacked," and neither does Parker/Ogwumike + a bunch of high-level role players


LA was loaded with talent in the early 2000s. Milton Jones was a 2x Olympic gold medalist and playing at a high level, Mabika was 1st Team All-WNBA in 2002, Tamecka Dixon was 2nd Team All-WNBA in 2001, all 3 made several All Star teams. It was a lot more than just the Lisa Leslie show.

As for 2016 LA, even with just Parker and peak Nneka that's 2 MVPs of firepower. It wasn't a 2012 Catchings situation, LA had a lot of talent in that lineup.



Quote:
The difference between Taurasi and Moore is that we've seen Taurasi on a team with subpar teammates. And, more importantly, we've seen Taurasi win a playoff series that her team was not favored to win.


When has DT had subpar teammates in the WNBA?

You can't fault Moore for being an underdog in 1 series out of 8 years. That's credit to her and credit to Minnesota. On the flip side, Phoenix has gravely underachieved many years in DT's era which is why they're so often in the underdog role despite having a plethora of talent.

They followed up the 2007 title by returning everyone but Taylor and completely miss the playoffs. They are the ONLY team in WNBA history to completely miss the playoffs after winning a title the previous year, and they had almost the exact same lineup aside from Penny Taylor being out. They also followed up their 2009 title by going 15-19 the following year. Aside from 2014 they've never won even come close to winning the west despite usually having DT and BG in the lineup. (Actually, they did come close in 2015 but Taurasi sat out that year.)






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What we do know is that during Moore's tenure in the WNBA, the Lynx never won a playoff series that they weren't favored to win,


That's because they were underdogs in just 1 series in 8 years in Minnesota, so they went 0-1 in that situation.

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and lost two series in which they were.

It's extremely convenient to bring up the 2 they lost as favorites and ignore the 15 they won. I get that cherry picking the 2 series losses helps your argument, but anyway you cut it winning 88% of those series (or 83% if you add in the 1 where they were an underdog) is a brilliant record.


Silky Johnson



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PostPosted: 09/20/22 8:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

barryi22 wrote:
I'm not refuting that her teams weren't stacked with talent, but pointing out that Maya was the catalyst for getting those teams to the next level, and both times those teams underachieved prior to her being there. She was the reason why UCONN and the Lynx elevated to a new stratosphere.


So you say. I guess we'll never know.


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LA was loaded with talent in the early 2000s. Milton Jones was a 2x Olympic gold medalist and playing at a high level...


Yeah. A high level roleplayer. Again, I don't know why you think that being an Olympian refutes the claim that someone is a roleplayer. Hell, Kara Wolters has a gold medal, So does Ashja Jones.

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... Mabika was 1st Team All-WNBA in 2002, Tamecka Dixon was 2nd Team All-WNBA in 2001, all 3 made several All Star teams.


Very high level roleplayers, but still roleplayers. Hell, Stefanie Dolson is a two-time All-Star and a gold medalist, and she's about the most roleplaying-est roleplayer there is. Ruth Riley was a gold medalist, an All-Star, a Finals MVP and she's in the WBHOF: I dare you to tell me she wasn't a roleplayer. No disrespect, but you're not going to convince me that a team whose third-best player was Mwadi Mabika had any business being considered a title favorite.

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When has DT had subpar teammates in the WNBA?


Those 2004 and 2005 Mercury teams were pretty subpar.

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You can't fault Moore for being an underdog in 1 series out of 8 years.


It was twice. And they lost both times.



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barryi22



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PostPosted: 09/20/22 9:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Silky Johnson wrote:
barryi22 wrote:
I'm not refuting that her teams weren't stacked with talent, but pointing out that Maya was the catalyst for getting those teams to the next level, and both times those teams underachieved prior to her being there. She was the reason why UCONN and the Lynx elevated to a new stratosphere.


So you say. I guess we'll never know.


You could make that argument about anything then. That's like saying had UCONN hired someone else other than Geno they could have gone on to win more titles than him. We'll never know. Fact is both UCONN and the Lynx went to new heights with Moore vs. the years prior to Moore.


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Quote:
LA was loaded with talent in the early 2000s. Milton Jones was a 2x Olympic gold medalist and playing at a high level...


Yeah. A high level roleplayer. Again, I don't know why you think that being an Olympian refutes the claim that someone is a roleplayer. Hell, Kara Wolters has a gold medal, So does Ashja Jones.

Quote:
... Mabika was 1st Team All-WNBA in 2002, Tamecka Dixon was 2nd Team All-WNBA in 2001, all 3 made several All Star teams.


Very high level roleplayers, but still roleplayers. Hell, Stefanie Dolson is a two-time All-Star and a gold medalist, and she's about the most roleplaying-est roleplayer there is. Ruth Riley was a gold medalist, an All-Star, a Finals MVP and she's in the WBHOF: I dare you to tell me she wasn't a roleplayer. No disrespect, but you're not going to convince me that a team whose third-best player was Mwadi Mabika had any business being considered a title favorite.



Who from 2001/2002 should have been the title favorite in your opinion? Genuinely curious.

Regardless if you classify players as role players or not, they were easily one of, if not the most talented team in the league those years. Leslie was the centerpiece but they had a top tier roster when it came to talent, and it showed in results going 28-4 (6 games ahead of 2nd place) and 22-10.

And even if you ignore All Star games, Mabika was 1st Team All-WNBA in 2002. If that's your 3rd best player in your eyes, that's a pretty stacked roster IMO.


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Quote:
When has DT had subpar teammates in the WNBA?


Those 2004 and 2005 Mercury teams were pretty subpar.


Yep and they missed the playoffs both years. I'm not sure how that helps Taurasi's case over Moore, other than it shows she couldn't get a team of underdogs to the playoffs. Also, any thoughts on the DT underperforming seasons I mentioned?

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You can't fault Moore for being an underdog in 1 series out of 8 years.


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It was twice. And they lost both times.


Emphasis on the word series, not single game elimination. 1 time in 8 years and they lost to an all time great team (2014 Phoenix). Plus you're still conveniently ignoring the fact that she was a favorite in 17 of 18 series and won 15 of them. But I guess in your eyes that 1 loss in 2014 outshines the 15 series she did win.


MNfan22



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 09/21/22 12:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

barryi22 wrote:
I think she's among the very best and probably would've been the best ever had her focus stayed in basketball. As is, her WNBA resume is matched by very few. In regards to her always having the most talent, I think this is largely true but Maya was almost always the reason why her teams were able to push it to the next level.

... Entering the pros Moore joined Minnesota who returned Whalen/Brunson/Augustus after going 13-21 with the lineup a year prior. With Maya in the fold they go 27-7 and win a title, and proceed to win 3 more and play in 6 of 7 finals.

...
barryi22 wrote:
Silky Johnson wrote:

She was drafted by a team that returned three players who had been All-Stars and/or All-WNBA caliber players before Maya Moore ever set foot on a WNBA court, and then added a fourth. Like I said before, teams underachieve all the time, and the lack of success doesn't have any particular bearing on whether the team was loaded or not.


I'm not refuting that her teams weren't stacked with talent, but pointing out that Maya was the catalyst for getting those teams to the next level, and both times those teams underachieved prior to her being there. She was the reason why UCONN and the Lynx elevated to a new stratosphere.


Maya was great but I feel that there should be some context to that 13-21 2010 record.

Some 2010 Lynx season highlights:
A new head coach
Flipped 2/3 of the roster
The Francise, Seimone missed half the season still recovering from ACL & hysterectomy
Brunson missed the first 4/5games of the season playing overseas
Wiggins ruptured her Achillies after playing only 8 games
Anosike bailed the last 3,4 games of the season
Thankfully some things started to click and the team looked better in the later half then the first half of the season

While I appreciated watching Maya with the Lynx, she didn't come in as the main catalysts of the teams success, not in my eyes. Timing is EVERYTHING.

Going into 2011, Maya came along at a time when all the pieces fit. With some addition (Taj McWms-Franklin), some subtraction and a healthy squad all in camp, Maya came in & was just able to play. She never had the burden to have to come in and carry a team like so many #1 overall picks; Whay, 'Mone, BB in their primes & Taj were the anchors. So the idea that Maya turned everything around is just not true. All the pieces fit and that was the beauty of watching Maya as part of the Core4 with the Lynx.


As to Maya walking away; for me, watching Maya up close for 8 seasons w/the Lynx, give EVERYTHING she had in her, EVERY game, she never cheated us.
I could see her walking away when she did; the team was fried by 2018, you could see it in their faces. 7yrs is a long time to play at the highest level and near max number of post season games to win Titles; mentally & physically draining.

Wanted to see what she would do once a team was fully her's so to speak but it wasn't to be. So there is that bit of a void to her pro career, kind of unfinished. But there's more to life then the game and whatever ones calling might be, she got the max out of her time on the court for sure.



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justintyme



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PostPosted: 09/21/22 3:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When Maya Moore speaks of her "ministry" it is synonymous with her fight for social justice. She has more than once talked about how this is all interconnected.

And it has been since the very beginning. It was her great-uncles work in prison ministry that heavily influenced her and got her started upon this path. Ultimately, it was through her own prison ministry that she met Jeremy Irons.

In the Player's Tribune article she doesn't list the specifics of what she's stepping away from basketball for, but rather calls it her "ministry goals". We know now, based upon later interviews and her own actions, that her "ministry goals" were fighting for criminal justice reform, and specifically fighting for the release of Jeremy Irons.

When Moore announced she was sitting out 2020 as well, Cheryl Reeve contextualized her decision, based upon their many conversations, as this:

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Over the last year we have been in frequent contact with Maya around the great work in criminal justice reform and ministry in which she is fully engaged. We are proud of the ways that Maya is advocating for justice and using her platform to impact social change.


And then there was Kent Youngblood, the Lynx's beat reporter for the Minneapolis Star Tribune, who had this to say of Maya back in 2019

Quote:
At the same time Moore, almost always willing to weigh in on the issues of the day, has taken an interest in the criminal justice system, particularly where it relates to wrongful imprisonment. Moore is also an advocate of the End it Movement, which is trying to end modern slavery.


Since his release, both Maya and Jeremy have continued to work toward criminal justice reform. She created the advocacy group Win With Justice (https://winwithjustice.org/), in conjunction with Athletes For Impact, through which she continues this fight.

But, yes, she also took some time to have a child and is pretty happy and excited about that, and yes this has reduced the number of speaking engagements and other appearances in recent months. So it appears she wrote a book instead, one titled Love & Justice: A Story of Triumph on Two Different Courts. It's being released on January 23, 2023.

Sounds like a fairly active "career" in social justice, at least to me.



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