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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 756 Location: Siege Perilous
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Posted: 05/04/22 2:31 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Government shouldn't be legislating this at any level. People's personal health decisions should not be within government purview. |
I don't live in any of the affected states. But did it ever occur to you that maybe the majority of people who do, consider it to be murder after the 6 weeks have passed? So at that point it's considered more than just a personal health decision.
Also I think that even in the so-called "worst case" scenarios in red states there will be carveouts for rape and incest cases.
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 8869 Location: Niagara Falls
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Posted: 05/04/22 3:03 pm ::: |
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Stonington_QB wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Government shouldn't be legislating this at any level. People's personal health decisions should not be within government purview. |
I don't live in any of the affected states. But did it ever occur to you that maybe the majority of people who do, consider it to be murder after the 6 weeks have passed? So at that point it's considered more than just a personal health decision.
Also I think that even in the so-called "worst case" scenarios in red states there will be carveouts for rape and incest cases. |
you may want to read this if you think those repuQs are doing carve-outs.
https://www.insider.com/abortion-rights-anti-abortion-bills-no-exception-for-rape-incest-2022-3
_________________ i'll always bleed Storm green.
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 756 Location: Siege Perilous
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Posted: 05/04/22 3:10 pm ::: |
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The states that have bills floating around which exclude carveouts will never make it to the governor's desk.
We don't even know for sure if Roe v Wade will actually be overturned.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 05/04/22 3:54 pm ::: |
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Stonington_QB wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Stonington_QB wrote: |
There will be a small handful of states that will put forth measures to restrict them. For the women who live in those states, I'm seeing they will continue to have three options:
1) Get your abortion within 6 weeks of pregnancy
2) Be more vigilant in your sexual activities
3) Go to a state where you can get it done |
Six weeks isn't going to be the rule in those states without Roe. It will no abortion, period.
The options will be
1) Be rich enough to have a doctor who will take care of it quietly
2) Go to an underground provider, who may or may not be qualified
3) Coathangers
Just like it was in the pre-Roe days |
The 6 week rule will happen. Even in states like Texas, Oklahoma and Florida. It's written already. Eventually it will just be legal in all 50 states, and I imagine it will be sooner than marijuana will. |
Uh no. Oklahoma previously made it a felony to perform an abortion except in cases of a medical emergency, with a fine of up to $100K and/or 10 years in jail. This is in addition to the clause in the 6-week bill that gives a private citizen the right to file a civil suit for $10K in damages against anyone performing an abortion.
Think about that. How many physicians are going to take those risks? Felony = loss of medical license, loss of malpractice coverage, loss of hospital privileges = loss of career...not to mention the fine and jail, and the additional liability imposed on their staff for abetting a felony. Maybe a lot of women will be doing EPT's after every sexual encounter to make the six week window, but are there going to be any clinics left in the state where they can actually get an abortion?
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8249 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 05/04/22 9:50 pm ::: |
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Stonington_QB wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Stonington_QB wrote: |
There will be a small handful of states that will put forth measures to restrict them. For the women who live in those states, I'm seeing they will continue to have three options:
1) Get your abortion within 6 weeks of pregnancy
2) Be more vigilant in your sexual activities
3) Go to a state where you can get it done |
Six weeks isn't going to be the rule in those states without Roe. It will no abortion, period.
The options will be
1) Be rich enough to have a doctor who will take care of it quietly
2) Go to an underground provider, who may or may not be qualified
3) Coathangers
Just like it was in the pre-Roe days |
The 6 week rule will happen. Even in states like Texas, Oklahoma and Florida. It's written already. Eventually it will just be legal in all 50 states, and I imagine it will be sooner than marijuana will. |
I generally agree, but not necessarily as to a six week rule.
The cultural/political attitudes toward abortion and the abortion legal landscapes in the majority of states have changed dramatically in the 50 years since Roe and the 30 years since Casey.
Initially after an overruling of Roe/Casey, strong abortion restrictions will almost exclusively affect poor/minority women in red states and will not affect women in the more populous blue states at all, where abortions will continue to be freely available. Republican politicians will quickly realize that this is not an election dynamic that is in the interest of their party. Restrictions on abortions will eventually be loosened just about everywhere.
In addition to employers paying for abortion expenses, Obamacare federal funds already pay for a restricted category of abortions under Medicaid, as do state funds under Medicaid in 16 states for a much wider category of abortions. I would expect governmental payments for abortion under Medicaid to quickly expand.
State Funding of Abortion Under Medicaid |
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craigmont
Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 999 Location: Bing-town
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Posted: 05/04/22 10:53 pm ::: |
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Stonington_QB wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Eventually, sure. That's of little comfort to the women who will suffer needlessly in the meantime. |
What do you suggest we do then? Keep a controversial ruling going forever? How long will this transitional period take, really? If Roe vs Wade had been decided correctly from the get-go, this would have all been ironed out by now. At most there will be a negligible transition period or a minor inconvenience for some people in a number of states. Because let's be real, some people in positions of power (and some who are not) will bend over backwards to help them. I would have thought you'd be happy to see some of the levers of power moved away from the federal government and over to the local level, where they are probably just going to allow it anyways. |
Minor inconvenience?!?!
You've gotta be trolling.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15754 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 05/04/22 11:57 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Government shouldn't be legislating this at any level. People's personal health decisions should not be within government purview. |
Totally agreed. This is just as egregious as China forcing abortions on their people for population control, or tolerating the displacement of unwanted female children. This is as evil as sterilizing 'substandard' humans.
The people of the Land - the majority that exists - needs to tell the F*cking Christians to keep their gottdamm religion to themselves, and OUT of their governmental intrusions, and their neighbors' lives.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8973
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Posted: 05/05/22 6:09 am ::: |
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scullyfu wrote: |
Ex-Ref wrote: |
Now what about the women that don't work for large companies or are on the insurance policy of one of the large companies?
I've only lived in Indiana. What do you have to do to become a resident of a state? Can you "rent" a room somewhere for a couple of weeks, say that you are a resident, have an abortion, then move back to where you were previously living?
Could there be an organization that provides a place for women to 'move' to so that they can have assistance to "move" there and not be subject to the $10,000 bounty? |
I think states offering assistance to women needing an abortion aren’t requiring you be a resident.
There is a new Underground Railroad afoot. |
I was thinking about states like Texas, where someone can sued for $10,000 for just driving a woman to have an abortion. My understanding is that if someone assists, in any way, a woman to have an abortion, in Texas another citizen can sue that person. I guess I assumed that the woman wanting the abortion would have to be a resident of Texas. So if the woman could say that her residence was in another state, that law wouldn't be applicable.
Sort of a malicious compliance to the laws that we're seeing.
_________________ "Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 05/05/22 9:06 am ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Government shouldn't be legislating this at any level. People's personal health decisions should not be within government purview. |
Totally agreed. This is just as egregious as China forcing abortions on their people for population control, or tolerating the displacement of unwanted female children. This is as evil as sterilizing 'substandard' humans.
The people of the Land - the majority that exists - needs to tell the F*cking Christians to keep their gottdamm religion to themselves, and OUT of their governmental intrusions, and their neighbors' lives. |
Oklahoma just changed all the rules in this game. By making it illegal for a physician to perform an abortion except in a medical emergency, they've moved abortion out of the realm of a woman's private health decisions and into the regulation of medical care, where government interference has been escalating for several decades.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 05/05/22 1:18 pm ::: |
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And in Louisiana, the Abolition of Abortion Act has made it out of committee and makes it "prenatal homicide" to take the life of a fetus, who has human personhood from the moment of fertilization. Bye, bye Plan B and Misoprostol. They've already passed a law similar to Oklahoma's which criminalizes abortion and which will be triggered if Roe vs Wade is overturned.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15754 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 05/05/22 2:28 pm ::: |
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I'm curious....if any gal finds herself in that dilemma (and she's told no one anything about it) can she, say, go for a long weekend to see a Broadway show in NYC and take care of business there? Just how far does the Arm of The Law of one's state of residence reach?
I'd hope that every state legislative body in any of these states has some Democrats with backbone who'll stand up and demand laws to provide state-of-the-art birth control measures.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 05/05/22 4:11 pm ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
I'm curious....if any gal finds herself in that dilemma (and she's told no one anything about it) can she, say, go for a long weekend to see a Broadway show in NYC and take care of business there? Just how far does the Arm of The Law of one's state of residence reach?
I'd hope that every state legislative body in any of these states has some Democrats with backbone who'll stand up and demand laws to provide state-of-the-art birth control measures. |
Currently, women can travel to other states. 1400 Texas women go out of state every month. Planned Parenthood has said they are seeing TX women here across northern New England. However, some states, like Missouri, are contemplating laws to make it illegal to go out-of-state for an abortion with private citizens able to file civil suits and collect their $10K.
https://www.keranews.org/health-wellness/2022-05-05/an-attack-on-women-how-texans-are-reacting-to-the-prospect-of-a-ban-on-abortions
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/missouri-considers-law-to-make-illegal-to-aid-or-abet-out-of-state
Location data brokers can track women's cell phones to determine when they go to Planned Parenthood, etc, and use health-related apps on the phone to monitor women's menstrual cycles. Currently this information is being sold to third parties in aggregate but there's the potential for selling identifiable personal information. An expose about an adtech company called Safegraph just came to light earlier this week. The company is run by a group of extremely conservative, middle-aged, white men with very deep pockets and their fingers in a lot of other pies, and it's very scary. Safegraph has promised to review its policies after being exposed, but IMHO, they'll just hide their business better.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/m7vzjb/location-data-abortion-clinics-safegraph-planned-parenthood
https://www.businessinsider.com/safegraph-no-longer-selling-planned-parenthood-data-2022-5?op=1
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8973
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Posted: 05/05/22 6:03 pm ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
I'm curious....if any gal finds herself in that dilemma (and she's told no one anything about it) can she, say, go for a long weekend to see a Broadway show in NYC and take care of business there? Just how far does the Arm of The Law of one's state of residence reach?
I'd hope that every state legislative body in any of these states has some Democrats with backbone who'll stand up and demand laws to provide state-of-the-art birth control measures. |
That's pretty much what I was asking about with 'moving' and then getting an abortion and then 'moving' back to that horrible state that you had to move from!!!!!
_________________ "Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 05/05/22 7:30 pm ::: |
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Ex-Ref wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
I'm curious....if any gal finds herself in that dilemma (and she's told no one anything about it) can she, say, go for a long weekend to see a Broadway show in NYC and take care of business there? Just how far does the Arm of The Law of one's state of residence reach?
I'd hope that every state legislative body in any of these states has some Democrats with backbone who'll stand up and demand laws to provide state-of-the-art birth control measures. |
That's pretty much what I was asking about with 'moving' and then getting an abortion and then 'moving' back to that horrible state that you had to move from!!!!! |
Do clinics perform same-day abortions? Walk in and get an appt for the procedure the same day? That seems unlikely. I would think a woman had to get an appt for an eval and then be given the next available time slot for the actual procedure, but I don't know.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15754 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 05/05/22 8:15 pm ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Ex-Ref wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
I'm curious....if any gal finds herself in that dilemma (and she's told no one anything about it) can she, say, go for a long weekend to see a Broadway show in NYC and take care of business there? Just how far does the Arm of The Law of one's state of residence reach?
I'd hope that every state legislative body in any of these states has some Democrats with backbone who'll stand up and demand laws to provide state-of-the-art birth control measures. |
That's pretty much what I was asking about with 'moving' and then getting an abortion and then 'moving' back to that horrible state that you had to move from!!!!! |
Do clinics perform same-day abortions? Walk in and get an appt for the procedure the same day? That seems unlikely. I would think a woman had to get an appt for an eval and then be given the next available time slot for the actual procedure, but I don't know. |
Obviously, there are some procedural steps to follow....pre-arrangements, if you will: plan your 'trip' around the appointment. But again: Is there ANY way this person might have their medical record become known to the 'wrong' people? This is all too freekin' dystopian.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 05/05/22 8:56 pm ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Ex-Ref wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
I'm curious....if any gal finds herself in that dilemma (and she's told no one anything about it) can she, say, go for a long weekend to see a Broadway show in NYC and take care of business there? Just how far does the Arm of The Law of one's state of residence reach?
I'd hope that every state legislative body in any of these states has some Democrats with backbone who'll stand up and demand laws to provide state-of-the-art birth control measures. |
That's pretty much what I was asking about with 'moving' and then getting an abortion and then 'moving' back to that horrible state that you had to move from!!!!! |
Do clinics perform same-day abortions? Walk in and get an appt for the procedure the same day? That seems unlikely. I would think a woman had to get an appt for an eval and then be given the next available time slot for the actual procedure, but I don't know. |
Obviously, there are some procedural steps to follow....pre-arrangements, if you will: plan your 'trip' around the appointment. But again: Is there ANY way this person might have their medical record become known to the 'wrong' people? This is all too freekin' dystopian. |
Read the Vice expose I linked above about tracking women's menstrual cycles and PP appts through their phones.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8973
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Posted: 05/05/22 9:58 pm ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Ex-Ref wrote: |
Howee wrote: |
I'm curious....if any gal finds herself in that dilemma (and she's told no one anything about it) can she, say, go for a long weekend to see a Broadway show in NYC and take care of business there? Just how far does the Arm of The Law of one's state of residence reach?
I'd hope that every state legislative body in any of these states has some Democrats with backbone who'll stand up and demand laws to provide state-of-the-art birth control measures. |
That's pretty much what I was asking about with 'moving' and then getting an abortion and then 'moving' back to that horrible state that you had to move from!!!!! |
Do clinics perform same-day abortions? Walk in and get an appt for the procedure the same day? That seems unlikely. I would think a woman had to get an appt for an eval and then be given the next available time slot for the actual procedure, but I don't know. |
I hope not. That's why my earlier comment that I referred to mentioned staying a couple of weeks.
Quote: |
What do you have to do to become a resident of a state? Can you "rent" a room somewhere for a couple of weeks, say that you are a resident, have an abortion, then move back to where you were previously living? |
_________________ "Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 06/24/22 1:04 pm ::: |
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Well, now we know the answer to the original question. And now, more cans of worms (contraception, sodomy, and same-sex marriage) are being opened by Thomas, and the trigger laws take effect in some places today. And no, those trigger laws have no exceptions for rape, incest, or the woman's health, and some of the exceptions for the woman's life are very restrictive.
Take a look at the map at the top of this story.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/24/politics/abortion-ruling-gay-rights-contraceptives/index.html
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 756 Location: Siege Perilous
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Posted: 06/24/22 7:55 pm ::: |
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I'm not here to throw sand in anyone's face. I know this is a real tough one to swallow for some of you.
I believe this is where the "ironing out" that I spoke of earlier begins, state by state. I think we'll see the laws of the extreme opposites being challenged, from both sides in court. We'll see what happens. I'm still certain, that when the dust settles, there will be carveouts for the obvious special cases, and there will also be a timeframe required to get it done. But it's going to take time.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21951
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Posted: 06/24/22 8:39 pm ::: |
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You guys really have some effed-up states over there.
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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Stonington_QB
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 756 Location: Siege Perilous
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Posted: 06/24/22 9:08 pm ::: |
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At least we're not under China's bootheel.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67052 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/24/22 9:22 pm ::: |
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Stonington_QB wrote: |
I'm not here to throw sand in anyone's face. I know this is a real tough one to swallow for some of you.
I believe this is where the "ironing out" that I spoke of earlier begins, state by state. I think we'll see the laws of the extreme opposites being challenged, from both sides in court. We'll see what happens. I'm still certain, that when the dust settles, there will be carveouts for the obvious special cases, and there will also be a timeframe required to get it done. But it's going to take time. |
That's of little comfort to the people who have to suffer in the meanwhile
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3518
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Posted: 06/24/22 10:23 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Stonington_QB wrote: |
I'm not here to throw sand in anyone's face. I know this is a real tough one to swallow for some of you.
I believe this is where the "ironing out" that I spoke of earlier begins, state by state. I think we'll see the laws of the extreme opposites being challenged, from both sides in court. We'll see what happens. I'm still certain, that when the dust settles, there will be carveouts for the obvious special cases, and there will also be a timeframe required to get it done. But it's going to take time. |
That's of little comfort to the people who have to suffer in the meanwhile |
Nearly half of the states have recently passed trigger laws with no carveouts except to save the mother's life, and more are poised to act. It's going to take another 20 years, at least, before those laws get reversed and carveouts allowed, which still does no good for a woman whose BC simply failed. Marital rape is going to be a huge issue.
Another whole generation of women are going to be treated like livestock. I am very glad I don't have any daughters.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18055 Location: Queens
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Posted: 06/24/22 10:46 pm ::: |
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And then there’s the whole litany of insignificant details related to giving birth, such as the exorbitant costs, the lack of proper maternity leave, the abhorrent state of healthcare in most of this country, the rollback of universal free lunch for students, the skyrocketing cost and limited availability of childcare, the deteriorating environment in which these kids are going to grow up (you know, assuming they don’t get shot)...
But sure. We’ll wait for things to be “ironed out”. And “carveouts” to be negotiated. And timeframes not backed up by science to be promulgated. And meanwhile, millions of people have just been informed that their bodily autonomy is not, fact, theirs. That their control over their internal organs is dependent on which side of a geopolitical boundary they’re on. That they are not entitled to decide that they do not, in fact, want to spend up to nine months having an incomplete person leech their body of vitamins and minerals to sustain itself. That, well, oops, guess they’re going to have to live with permanent changes to their body because they can’t decide what to do with said body for themselves.
Oh, and that’s not even getting into Thomas’s concurring opinion, which casually mentions other cases that should be reconsidered. Little things like Griswold, Lawrence, Obergefell. No big deal, just the potential to invalidate people’s marriages, deny them healthcare, criminalize their consensual sexual activities. Nothing to see there, right?
Oh, and I hope you didn’t like HIPAA, because that was predicated on the right to privacy...
tl;dr: you can make decisions about your uterus, but GTFO out of everyone else's
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005 Posts: 22477 Location: NJ
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Posted: 06/25/22 8:48 am ::: |
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This country is failing in so many ways, but this just set us back 50 years. The Supreme Court is coming for same sex marriage next. What's next after that? All the more reason to #VoteBlue this November.
_________________ LET'S GO LIBERTY!!!!!!
Twitter: @TBRBWAY
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