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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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 Posted: 08/14/22 1:50 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
The names of Tommie Smith and John Carlos have been repeated endlessly by activists and others ever since 1968. I was lucky enough to hear Mr. Carlos speak a few years ago at the New York Public Library. How ironic to have them discussed as "nameless guys" on a WNBA board, given the courageous anti-racist activism of so many WNBA players before 2020, during 2020, and ever since. And even more ironic on a thread about Brittney Griner, who surely knows the names of and honors Tommie Smith and John Carlos. Indeed, it's quite possible that Griner knows them personally.
The African American Museum of History and Culture in Washington, D.C., has a powerful statue memorial for Smith, Carlos, and Peter Norman--the white Australian sprinter who was on the Olympic medal podium with Smith and Carlos in 1968 and supported their protest. The link below shows a photo:
https://wskg.org/this-new-yorkers-raised-fist-still-resonates-50-years-later/gettyimages-913604176/
I won't take time to note the many awards that have been given to Tommie Smith, John Carlos, or both. But here's just one. In 2008, these two "nameless guys" were given the Arthur Ashe Award for Courage at ESPN's annual ESPY awards. But no one inside or outside the sports world attends or watches the ESPYs, right? |
Thank you Bob for bringing accuracy here again. I am taking lessons on how to thoroughly refute opinions that are based on diddly squat. And thank you to Howee, Silky and Luc for recognizing the awesomely accurate history lesson Bob graced us with.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 08/15/22 7:27 am ::: |
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BG's lawyers have filed an appeal.
| Quote: |
| Blagovolina and co-counsel Alexander Boykov said after the conviction that the sentence was excessive and that in similar cases defendants have received an average sentence of about five years, with about a third of them granted parole. |
https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/wnba/2022/08/15/brittney-griner-lawyers-appeal-russian-prison-sentence/10326479002/
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 08/15/22 7:41 am ::: |
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| "This quite sensitive issue of the swap of convicted Russian and US citizens is being discussed through the channels defined by our presidents. These individuals are, indeed, being discussed. The Russian side has long been seeking the release of Viktor Bout. The details should be left to professionals, proceeding from the ‘do not harm’ principle,’" Darchiev said to TASS. |
Russian official confirms names discussed in prisoner swap talks
https://www.cnn.com/webview/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-08-15-22/h_db2e7f96b3161be353fb10bfa526b7af
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 08/15/22 9:23 pm ::: |
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| elsie wrote: |
does anybody remember anything about the three black guys that raised their fist while on the podium in the Olympics decades ago?....no....nobody even remembers their names....
but everyone knows and remembers George Foreman....
now over the decades who has done more to enrich the American people and black people specifically ...George Foreman or those three nameless guys?....
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Your general point—that George Foreman was far more famous and for much, much longer—than Tommie Smith or John Carlos is completely valid, elsie, no matter what anyone says.
Smith and Carlos are not nameless, as Bob Lamm points out, but hardly knows the names of 200 meter runners today other than track fans, much less 200 meter runners from 54 years ago other than really old track fans.
Foreman, on the other hand, was famous as a heavyweight boxer and two-time champion for 30 years (1967-1997), plus was well-known as a boxing announcer, entrepreneur, TV advertiser, TV show personality, and ordained minister.
Tommie Smith is still my favorite 220 yard sprinter of all time, but both he and Carlos were mostly ostracized by the sports community after their 1968 Olympics black glove salute, and thereafter basically disappeared from public awareness. Foreman, who paraded around the the 1968 Olympic ring with an American flag, went on to a lifetime of fame due to his many other achievements.
Back to Griner, I don't read Facebook or Twitter, but if the bullying mobs and bots there are saying she shouldn't be eligible for a prisoner swap because of her American flag behaviors, I don't care and couldn't disagree more. I think having sat six months already in prison for possessing a teaspoon of hash oil is a stiff enough punishment, and she should be considered by the U.S. government for a swap. So, equally, should Paul Whelan and Marc Fogel. |
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 08/15/22 11:45 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| elsie wrote: |
does anybody remember anything about the three black guys that raised their fist while on the podium in the Olympics decades ago?....no....nobody even remembers their names....
but everyone knows and remembers George Foreman....
now over the decades who has done more to enrich the American people and black people specifically ...George Foreman or those three nameless guys?....
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Your general point—that George Foreman was far more famous and for much, much longer—than Tommie Smith or John Carlos is completely valid, elsie, no matter what anyone says.
Smith and Carlos are not nameless, as Bob Lamm points out, but hardly knows the names of 200 meter runners today other than track fans, much less 200 meter runners from 54 years ago other than really old track fans.
Foreman, on the other hand, was famous as a heavyweight boxer and two-time champion for 30 years (1967-1997), plus was well-known as a boxing announcer, entrepreneur, TV advertiser, TV show personality, and ordained minister.
Tommie Smith is still my favorite 220 yard sprinter of all time, but both he and Carlos were mostly ostracized by the sports community after their 1968 Olympics black glove salute, and thereafter basically disappeared from public awareness. Foreman, who paraded around the the 1968 Olympic ring with an American flag, went on to a lifetime of fame due to his many other achievements.
Back to Griner, I don't read Facebook or Twitter, but if the bullying mobs and bots there are saying she shouldn't be eligible for a prisoner swap because of her American flag behaviors, I don't care and couldn't disagree more. I think having sat six months already in prison for possessing a teaspoon of hash oil is a stiff enough punishment, and she should be considered by the U.S. government for a swap. So, equally, should Paul Whelan and Marc Fogel. |
If the question is who has done more to enrich American life and the Black community specifically, hands down it is Smith and Carlos. Basing your judgment solely on your own awareness severely limits one's ability to accurately answer this question. For instance, all I know about Foreman is he named all of his sons George and he promoted a counter top grilling machine that sported his name. Smith and Carlos are routinely cited by Black athletes as being inspirational to them in pursuing athletic careers despite having limited access to resources compared to white athletes. Personally I think it's far more important to be known for being inspirational than for successfully promoting a household appliance.
Nobody should be assuming that BG actually possessed a small amount of hash oil. We do not know that she did. We do know that she did say in Russian court that she did, but that means diddly squat with respect to the truth.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/16/22 12:19 am ::: |
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I encourage everyone who respects Tommie Smith and John Carlos not to be drawn into any debate about whether they are more famous or less famous than George Foreman. Or any debate over who did more for the United States or the Black community.
I will say nothing negative about George Foreman. But the very setup of this "debate" was ugly right from the start. For many people in the U.S.--and not just African Americans--Tommie Smith and John Carlos are great heroes. That's why they've received so many awards. That's why there's a statue honoring them in D.C. I refuse to compare them to any other athlete in any respect except to look at sprint times and race results during the era that Smith and Carlos were competing on the track.
Finally, since this is a thread about Brittney Griner, I also refuse to debate whether she is more famous than athlete X or athlete Y. I refuse to debate whether Griner has done more for the United States or the Black community than athlete X or athlete Y. The only respect in which I will compare Brittney Griner to any other athlete is regarding her great skills as a basketball player. She is exceptional.
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Last edited by Bob Lamm on 08/16/22 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7370
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 08/16/22 2:05 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I encourage everyone who respects Tommie Smith and John Carlos not to be drawn into any debate about whether they are more famous or less famous than George Forman. Or any debate over who did more for the United States or the Black community.
I will say nothing negative about George Forman. But the very setup of this "debate" was ugly right from the start. For many people in the U.S.--and not just African Americans--Tommie Smith and John Carlos are great heroes. That's why they've received so many awards. That's why there's a statue honoring them in D.C. I refuse to compare them to any other athlete in any respect except to look at sprint times and race results during the era that Smith and Carlos were competing on the track.
Finally, since this is a thread about Brittney Griner, I also refuse to debate whether she is more famous than athlete X or athlete Y. I refuse to debate whether Griner has done more for the United States or the Black community than athlete X or athlete Y. The only respect in which I will compare Brittney Griner to any other athlete is regarding her great skills as a basketball player. She is exceptional. |
Bravo Bob. Thank you for keeping this on point. Sorry I engaged in a discussion set up with a false premise. This IS all about getting BG home safe and sound so she can continue living her life and showing the skills on the court she's worked so hard to develop.
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elsie
Joined: 08 Apr 2016
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| Posted: 08/19/22 6:34 pm ::: |
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some will say we're on a verge of a nuclear war or WW...some would say that our economy is going to crash hard....some will say that the severe drought conditions is driving inflation and there will be food scarcities....
but lets all worry about a basketball player and we will trade any arms dealer or rapists or murderer to get her back , Gosh darn it.....we have our priorities...../sarcasm/
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 08/19/22 8:38 pm ::: |
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| elsie wrote: |
some will say we're on a verge of a nuclear war or WW...some would say that our economy is going to crash hard....some will say that the severe drought conditions is driving inflation and there will be food scarcities....
but lets all worry about a basketball player and we will trade any arms dealer or rapists or murderer to get her back , Gosh darn it.....we have our priorities...../sarcasm/ |
It's almost as if people can be concerned about more than one thing at a time, isn't it? Almost...
I also can't help but wonder whether your pivot to this take had anything to do with you being called out for being loud and wrong about Tommie Smith and John Carlos (and Peter Norman, if we're going to keep it a stack; "three Black guys," indeed)? Either way, I can't imagine the audacity and lack of perception it must require to come into a thread dedicated to providing updated information about Griner's situation, as well as showing support for the aforementioned, just to be like, "But why aren't y'all talking about the economy, though?"
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 08/19/22 10:21 pm ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| elsie wrote: |
some will say we're on a verge of a nuclear war or WW...some would say that our economy is going to crash hard....some will say that the severe drought conditions is driving inflation and there will be food scarcities....
but lets all worry about a basketball player and we will trade any arms dealer or rapists or murderer to get her back , Gosh darn it.....we have our priorities...../sarcasm/ |
It's almost as if people can be concerned about more than one thing at a time, isn't it? Almost...
I also can't help but wonder whether your pivot to this take had anything to do with you being called out for being loud and wrong about Tommie Smith and John Carlos (and Peter Norman, if we're going to keep it a stack; "three Black guys," indeed)? Either way, I can't imagine the audacity and lack of perception it must require to come into a thread dedicated to providing updated information about Griner's situation, as well as showing support for the aforementioned, just to be like, "But why aren't y'all talking about the economy, though?" |
Right on point, Silky!
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/20/22 12:47 am ::: |
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| elsie wrote: |
| but lets all worry about a basketball player and we will trade any arms dealer or rapists or murderer to get her back , Gosh darn it.....we have our priorities...../sarcasm/ |
So on a website that's about BASKETBALL we're apparently supposed to feel guilty for worrying about a BASKETBALL PLAYER who's in prison far from home in a country run by a hideous dictator.
OK, it's true: I am indeed worried about Brittney Griner. And I feel very comfortable standing with Silky Johnson, readyAIMfire53, johnjohnW, and MANY others here who are worried about Brittney Griner.
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Luuuc
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 08/20/22 3:08 am ::: |
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A poster having an issue with everyone in the thread staying ON topic.
Ok, that's a new one for me.
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ChiSky54
Joined: 19 Jun 2019
Posts: 667
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 08/20/22 6:58 am ::: |
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| Silky Johnson wrote: |
| It's almost as if people can be concerned about more than one thing at a time, isn't it? Almost... |
We were created as unique, complex individuals with the capacity to process vast amounts of data and draw our own conclusions. We are influenced by many factors, and it's likely that some of those opinions will directly conflict with others' opinions - even our own. Or what folks believe our opinions should be. It doesn't have to be either/or.
It would be boring if everyone had the same beliefs. At the same time, there is no need to get contentious - agree to disagree and resist the temptation to resort to personal attacks.
During Chicago's 1983 mayoral campaign, some of my white lesbian friends asked me if I was going to vote for the woman (incumbent Jane Byrne) or the black man (Rep. Harold Washington). The question stumped me - it was being presented that I had to pick one based on what I felt was the stronger affiliation as opposed to weighing all the factors about each candidate. I don't treat those types of decisions in such a surface manner.
BG has been wrongfully detained - they could have done this anytime in all her trips back and forth, so why at that moment in history was she targeted? I've never smoked or done any drugs, never had a desire to, don't understand why anyone would, but I don't hold that against her (and we really don't know whether that's a factor here, since none of us was there).
No, I don't like the prisoner swap possibilities, and I can understand why others who have been detained longer are upset about the whole process. But BG's case has brought a lot of awareness to light.
Many people are upset that this black lesbian woman (who in some circles is seen as triply oppressed) athlete is getting so much attention. That's their prerogative. And I have mine.
Bring her home!
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 08/21/22 10:38 am ::: |
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Dennis Rodman says he's going to Russia to seek release of Brittney Griner
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/dennis-rodman-says-going-russia-seek-release-brittney-griner-rcna44106
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| "I got permission to go to Russia to help that girl," Rodman told NBC News at a restaurant in D.C. "I'm trying to go this week." |
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| Rodman does not need special permission from the U.S. to enter Russia — just a visa from Moscow — but the State Department has issued a travel advisory that strongly discourages American citizens visiting the country. |
Well, okay then. Whatever works, I suppose. Something tells me this is probably going to be used as a tool to embarrass the US.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 08/21/22 1:11 pm ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
Dennis Rodman says he's going to Russia to seek release of Brittney Griner
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/dennis-rodman-says-going-russia-seek-release-brittney-griner-rcna44106
| Quote: |
| "I got permission to go to Russia to help that girl," Rodman told NBC News at a restaurant in D.C. "I'm trying to go this week." |
| Quote: |
| Rodman does not need special permission from the U.S. to enter Russia — just a visa from Moscow — but the State Department has issued a travel advisory that strongly discourages American citizens visiting the country. |
Well, okay then. Whatever works, I suppose. Something tells me this is probably going to be used as a tool to embarrass the US. |
I hope he's smart enough not to pack illegal drugs in his luggage, or he may end up in the cell next to Brit's. That would be a nice tool to embarrass the US.
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
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| Posted: 08/22/22 5:38 am ::: |
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| Rodman is a doofus with visions of grandure. His attempt to remain slightly relative is going to turn this into more of a circus.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 08/22/22 2:50 pm ::: |
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| Doofus or not, if anybody can help, why not try?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 08/22/22 3:19 pm ::: |
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| I believe Rodman's intentions are good. Whether he'll be effective in securing remains to be seen, but I am dubious.
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ChiSky54
Joined: 19 Jun 2019
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| Posted: 08/22/22 3:21 pm ::: |
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https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/dennis-rodman-brittney-griner-white-house-biden-reacction-1234579170/
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It’s unclear who gave Rodman “permission” to go to Russia, and it doesn’t seem like it came from the White House. In a statement, a Biden administration official noted the U.S. is already working to strike a deal with Russia to secure Griner’s release and warned of complications that might arise if anyone else wormed their way into the proceedings.
“It’s public information that the administration has made a significant offer to the Russians and anything other than negotiating further through the established channel is likely to complicate and hinder release efforts,” the official said. |
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/22/22 3:28 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| johnjohnW wrote: |
Dennis Rodman says he's going to Russia to seek release of Brittney Griner
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/dennis-rodman-says-going-russia-seek-release-brittney-griner-rcna44106
| Quote: |
| "I got permission to go to Russia to help that girl," Rodman told NBC News at a restaurant in D.C. "I'm trying to go this week." |
| Quote: |
| Rodman does not need special permission from the U.S. to enter Russia — just a visa from Moscow — but the State Department has issued a travel advisory that strongly discourages American citizens visiting the country. |
Well, okay then. Whatever works, I suppose. Something tells me this is probably going to be used as a tool to embarrass the US. |
I hope he's smart enough not to pack illegal drugs in his luggage, or he may end up in the cell next to Brit's. That would be a nice tool to embarrass the US. |
Does it matter if he is? Russia could claim it regardless. It’s not like they wouldn’t want another American hostage.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/22/22 4:17 pm ::: |
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| At risk of not just stepping into a minefield, but doing my best Gregory Hines impression in the minefield, is it possible that he is doing this at the behest of someone who would love to take credit for freeing Griner when the current administration failed, but who would also be able to keep their hands clean if the attempt failed and really wouldn’t feel terrible if their meddling made things worse?
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 08/22/22 4:26 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| At risk of not just stepping into a minefield, but doing my best Gregory Hines impression in the minefield, is it possible that he is doing this at the behest of someone who would love to take credit for freeing Griner when the current administration failed, but who would also be able to keep their hands clean if the attempt failed and really wouldn’t feel terrible if their meddling made things worse? |
Sounds plausible.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/22/22 6:53 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| At risk of not just stepping into a minefield, but doing my best Gregory Hines impression in the minefield, is it possible that he is doing this at the behest of someone who would love to take credit for freeing Griner when the current administration failed, but who would also be able to keep their hands clean if the attempt failed and really wouldn’t feel terrible if their meddling made things worse? |
Yes, like Reagan and the hostages in Iran. Reagan blocked all efforts by Carter to get them released earlier. Same thing here. We already know Rodman is a tool.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19759
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| Posted: 08/22/22 8:21 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| At risk of not just stepping into a minefield, but doing my best Gregory Hines impression in the minefield, is it possible that he is doing this at the behest of someone who would love to take credit for freeing Griner when the current administration failed, but who would also be able to keep their hands clean if the attempt failed and really wouldn’t feel terrible if their meddling made things worse? |
Yes, like Reagan and the hostages in Iran. Reagan blocked all efforts by Carter to get them released earlier. Same thing here. We already know Rodman is a tool. |
It’s certainly a possibility, but Griner is not really the type of person that this someone would like to look like a hero for.
I think it’s much more likely that Rodman believes he is the dictator whisperer, not realizing that Kim was obsessed with the Bulls - and that gave him an advantage there.
Unless Putin has a similar obsession, I’m honestly not joking when I say I think the odds are that we have two basketball players who are illegally detained.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/22/22 8:59 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| It’s certainly a possibility, but Griner is not really the type of person that this someone would like to look like a hero for. |
Ah, but if the gambit succeeds, then someone can say that they did what Biden couldn’t, and that would be the point of the exercise. The actual deed being done becomes irrelevant at that point.
But you’re probably closer to the truth. I just have a tendency to come up with plots. I’m a writer, it’s what I do.
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Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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