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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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 Posted: 07/27/22 8:52 pm ::: |
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| elsie wrote: |
first of all, there are no "rights"in Russia....we in the USA have a constitution and a bill of rights and we function under rule of law, or used to be....this is the country BG refuses to honor....
there is no expectation of "rights" in Russia....
Secondly, so now BG does admit she had the dope....so this was a legitimate arrest....
thirdly, trading a mostly unknown basketball player for a big time arms dealer already convicted smacks of the most outrageous celebrity special treatment at the risk of great public harm and if BG backers don't admit that then they are either lying or so ignorant of the world stage and so uncaring of the world...
let BG fight this and hopefully she wins, but we never want to get into a spy for a basketball player scenario....
because what's next?....so Russia or Iraq or China grabs a celebrity and we're supposed to cough up more spies, murderers, arms dealers for that? |
Thanks to Howee and coffy73 for your critical responses to these ugly, wrongheaded words.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/27/22 9:55 pm ::: |
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| elsie wrote: |
first of all, there are no "rights"in Russia....we in the USA have a constitution and a bill of rights and we function under rule of law, or used to be....this is the country BG refuses to honor....
there is no expectation of "rights" in Russia....
Secondly, so now BG does admit she had the dope....so this was a legitimate arrest....
thirdly, trading a mostly unknown basketball player for a big time arms dealer already convicted smacks of the most outrageous celebrity special treatment at the risk of great public harm and if BG backers don't admit that then they are either lying or so ignorant of the world stage and so uncaring of the world...
let BG fight this and hopefully she wins, but we never want to get into a spy for a basketball player scenario....
because what's next?....so Russia or Iraq or China grabs a celebrity and we're supposed to cough up more spies, murderers, arms dealers for that? |
“The dope”? She wasn’t smuggling suitcases of heroin into Russia, FFS.
I mean, I’m not thrilled about the situation, either. While I’d like for her to be returned safely, the value of the trade appears to be unbalanced, even with the Biden administration upping their demands to both Griner and Whelan. And no, I don’t want despotic regimes getting bright ideas out of this either.
I do take exception to that remark about Griner “refusing to honor this country”, but I have neither the energy nor the inclination to ram my head repeatedly into a wall of jingoism.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 07/28/22 1:06 am ::: |
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Fixing part of this moronic diatribe. The rest is beyond fixable.
| elsie wrote: |
Secondly, so now BG did say in Russian court what she had to say for a chance of release...so this was NOT a legitimate arrest....
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What, exactly is a black gay woman supposed to honor about this country? That she hasn't yet been pulled over for a broken tail light and ended up dead (yet?) Or that she could soon have her right to marry the person of her choosing taken away? Or that she could be raped, impregnated and be forced to carry the rapist's fetus to term?
The court system in this country is not currently the kangaroo court that Russia is with the outcome determined by the dictator. But it hasn't been that long ago that white mobs could get the key to a prison door and take a wrongfully imprisoned person out to be lynched without a bat's chance in hell of having any member of the mob convicted of their murder.
Brittney speaking out in support of justice in this country does NOT NOT NOT mean she "dishonors" this country. It means we all deserve better administration of justice in this country.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 07/28/22 1:28 am ::: |
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| Thank you, Queenie. And thank you, ReadyAIMfire53. I appreciate the statements you've each posted above. I could add a tirade, but it's great that others are saying what needs to be said.
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WfanFrJmp
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/28/22 9:20 am ::: |
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| I’ve always felt that people who speak out about injustices in this country are the people who actually love their country - because they are trying to make it better. Burying your head in the sand and pretending everything is perfect is actually being disrespectful- and in fact contrary to the entire purpose - to build a more perfect union.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 07/28/22 10:19 am ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| I’ve always felt that people who speak out about injustices in this country are the people who actually love their country - because they are trying to make it better. Burying your head in the sand and pretending everything is perfect is actually being disrespectful- and in fact contrary to the entire purpose - to build a more perfect union. |
Bravo!
Our country was founded through a revolution against the injustice of English colonial rule. But that revolution also ACCEPTED injustice--most obviously against Native Americans, enslaved Africans, and women. In my view, those who speak out against historic and current injustice, among them Brittney Griner and other courageous WNBA players, are in the best traditions of the United States. We've always had injustice and we've always had people speak out against it.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/28/22 1:21 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| I’ve always felt that people who speak out about injustices in this country are the people who actually love their country - because they are trying to make it better. Burying your head in the sand and pretending everything is perfect is actually being disrespectful- and in fact contrary to the entire purpose - to build a more perfect union. |
Bravo!
Our country was founded through a revolution against the injustice of English colonial rule. But that revolution also ACCEPTED injustice--most obviously against Native Americans, enslaved Africans, and women. In my view, those who speak out against historic and current injustice, among them Brittney Griner and other courageous WNBA players, are in the best traditions of the United States. We've always had injustice and we've always had people speak out against it. |
YES! Thank you for true patriots like Bob and Mercfan. It is true that the compromise reached by revolutionaries meant this nation traded injustice by colonialists for injustice by self rule. The way to work towards a more just society is to speak about how to move towards more justice for ALL. Like what Brittney does.
People smoking FoxNews crack have the right to speak their psychotic fact free drivel. They even have the right to accuse fine and honorable people of being unpatriotic. That does not change the fact that what they're saying comes from the FoxNews crackpipe. And, in this country, we have the right (and duty) to call them out for what they are.
As odious as it is to agree to kidnapper demands to free those they hold captive, we need to bring our people home. Then provide them with whatever resources they need to recover from the trauma of being held as political prisoners by a country with no operating justice system. Make no mistake: Putin determines every verdict. Through terror he has gained complete control over every aspect of Russia. Every statement made by both sides in Russian "court" is determined by Putin. He demands a guilty plea, he gets a guilty plea. I daresay every person faced with falsely pleading guilty vs punishment decided by Putin would say whatever he demands us to say. Just like every black person wrongfully detailed in a southern jail. Staying alive meant they had a chance to have the fictional Atticus Finch enter their life and save them.
Peace out.
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CalwbbFan
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 07/28/22 2:01 pm ::: |
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I still have my doubts as to whether she actually carried anything in her suitcase....Russian officials are not to be believed and pleading guilty seems to be the only recourse in terms of attempting to ask for leniency....but meanwhile, aside from Griner and Whelan, there's another man being held in Russia....sentenced to 14 years for carrying medical marijuana in his bag. Yes, people should be careful when they travel to a foreign country, but his case deserves some notice too....https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/2022/07/28/marc-fogel-teacher-russia-prison/
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| For the past 11 months, Fogel has languished in Russian detention centers following his August 2021 arrest for trying to enter the country with about half an ounce of medical marijuana he’d been prescribed in the United States for chronic pain after numerous injuries and surgeries. First he endlessly awaited trial, often in crowded, smoke-choked cells. More recently, he has been serving the first weeks of an incomprehensible 14-year sentence handed down by a Russian judge in June. |
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johnjohnW
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ChicagoAnnie
Joined: 04 Sep 2009
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| Posted: 07/28/22 11:55 pm ::: |
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| elsie wrote: |
first of all, there are no "rights"in Russia....we in the USA have a constitution and a bill of rights and we function under rule of law, or used to be....this is the country BG refuses to honor....
let BG fight this and hopefully she wins, but we never want to get into a spy for a basketball player scenario....
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1. WTF does this even mean? BG, like her teammates busted her ass and proudly wore here USA uniform in the Olympics. Is that not honor enough for you? I mean goddamn people are weird. The anthem is a song that y'all stand in the beer and hotdog line during, at games. And, Please don't talk about the constitution if you won't acknowledge that "we Americans" have the right to protest.
2. The US isn't trying to trade a spy for a basketball player. Bout is a businessman, not a spy. Whelan is also in this deal.
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ChicagoAnnie
Joined: 04 Sep 2009
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| Posted: 07/29/22 12:24 am ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
I'm relieved by this news but find it odd we would publicize the offer if it hasn't actually been worked out or accepted. Diplomacy and international prison exchanges are not something that can be worked out by Twitter activists. This is frustrating and I want BG home but people have to realize that this is actually lightening quick by international standards. I think Bout for BG and Whelan is a deal that should be done.
Maybe I'm naive but I've had faith in this administration that they would do what they can and I hope this offer is accepted. It's not ideal but what else can we do? |
The administration has been catching heat for being slow to react, or not doing enough. Perhaps, they had to release it to ward off the critics (for now)? I dunno.
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wnbafan
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/22 5:40 am ::: |
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| ChicagoAnnie wrote: |
| johnjohnW wrote: |
I'm relieved by this news but find it odd we would publicize the offer if it hasn't actually been worked out or accepted. Diplomacy and international prison exchanges are not something that can be worked out by Twitter activists. This is frustrating and I want BG home but people have to realize that this is actually lightening quick by international standards. I think Bout for BG and Whelan is a deal that should be done.
Maybe I'm naive but I've had faith in this administration that they would do what they can and I hope this offer is accepted. It's not ideal but what else can we do? |
The administration has been catching heat for being slow to react, or not doing enough. Perhaps, they had to release it to ward off the critics (for now)? I dunno. |
Since Putin has been sitting on this deal for weeks without responding, perhaps the U.S. is trying to pressure him by releasing the info. I dunno.
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 07/29/22 7:15 am ::: |
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| ChicagoAnnie wrote: |
| johnjohnW wrote: |
I'm relieved by this news but find it odd we would publicize the offer if it hasn't actually been worked out or accepted. Diplomacy and international prison exchanges are not something that can be worked out by Twitter activists. This is frustrating and I want BG home but people have to realize that this is actually lightening quick by international standards. I think Bout for BG and Whelan is a deal that should be done.
Maybe I'm naive but I've had faith in this administration that they would do what they can and I hope this offer is accepted. It's not ideal but what else can we do? |
The administration has been catching heat for being slow to react, or not doing enough. Perhaps, they had to release it to ward off the critics (for now)? I dunno. |
And that would be an incredibly foolish rationale for prematurely releasing information about the offer. The critics of this administration for being too slow or not doing enough truly do not understand the complexity of these negotiations and the extremely limited power we really have in this scenario. Russia has already released a statement basically telling the US to keep our mouths shut about these negotiations. We've basically offered them what they want and they haven't accepted yet, which is worrisome. However, as others have pointed out, Griner will likely need to be convicted before they agree to the swap. I hope that is the hold up here and not Russia's disinterest in the offer itself.
I just want her home and pray that cooler heads prevail and this is done procedurally.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 07/29/22 2:54 pm ::: |
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Does anyone here really believe Bout isn't going to return to some version of his previous activities? He's not a "businessman," he's a freaking arms dealer.
Framing this situation in terms of colonial and racial injustice leaves me shaking my head. Bout supplied weapons throughout west Africa to numerous warlords and brutal regimes, including Charles Taylor, in exchange for blood diamonds, gold, and other natural resources. The number of innocent African men, women, and children who were killed by those weapons is unknown. In addition, he supplied arms and/or aircraft to Libya, Iraq, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, militant Islamic extremists in the Philippines, and many others. He also supplied weapons to the US in the Middle East. Most of these weapons originated in Ukraine from prior Soviet stores and manufacturing facilities there.
Releasing a white Russian billionaire whose weapons were responsible for the deaths of thousands or hundreds of thousands of impoverished Africans and Asians is both racist and elitist. Note that Putin is now trading weapons to the president of Sudan's military regime, who's already been accused of war crimes in Darfur, for gold.
And, as has already been mentioned, this puts a big target on the backs of all our citizens abroad. Putin is already asking for a spy who murdered someone back from Germany in addition to Bout. We can't win this game.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 07/29/22 6:34 pm ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
| I'm relieved by this news but find it odd we would publicize the offer if it hasn't actually been worked out or accepted. |
Call me the cynic about government action on this point, but I suspect the only reason the Biden administration is publicizing this proposal now is because of political and electoral fears about a potential red wave election in three short months.
Because of the known opposition to this deal within the administration by the DOJ, and the likely opposition to a Victor Bout deal by the non-political professionals within the intelligence and military services, who caught Bout in a dangerous overseas sting operation, I'm even doubtful the deal would have been offered at all, other than because of the current and palpable Democrat fears of losing the Senate, House and state houses in November.
If there ever was a chance of this case being treated purely as a minor drug possession case with no political pressure on the judge, that possibility is likely now gone because of the Blinken publication of this proposed deal. If the judge is otherwise disposed, on the legal merits, to dismiss the case for time served, or to give Griner some other light sentence for possessing a teaspoon of hash oil, that will likely not now happen. Because, now that Biden is begging for Griner back, she will lose all bargaining value to Russia if she gets off with a light sentence in the trial.
Biden should have waited until after Griner's sentencing, which is expected in August, before offering a prisoner swap, which technically can't happen until Griner is a convicted prisoner anyway. That would have allowed the legal trial to play out to a possible, if unlikely, minor sentence. However, Biden couldn't wait for that commonsense process because his decision-making is dominated by partisan domestic politics.
This will work out well for Griner only if a prisoner swap deal is in fact accepted by Russia and completed fairly quickly. Otherwise, she has lost her opportunity for for a light trial sentence and may also languish in prison for years if prisoner swap negotiations drag on and on through government bureaucracies. |
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020
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| Posted: 07/29/22 6:51 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| johnjohnW wrote: |
| I'm relieved by this news but find it odd we would publicize the offer if it hasn't actually been worked out or accepted. |
Call me the cynic about government action on this point, but I suspect the only reason the Biden administration is publicizing this proposal now is because of political and electoral fears about a potential red wave election in three short months.
Because of the known opposition to this deal within the administration by the DOJ, and the likely opposition to a Victor Bout deal by the non-political professionals within the intelligence and military services, who caught Bout in a dangerous overseas sting operation, I'm even doubtful the deal would have been offered at all, other than because of the current and palpable Democrat fears of losing the Senate, House and state houses in November.
If there ever was a chance of this case being treated purely as a minor drug possession case with no political pressure on the judge, that possibility is likely now gone because of the Blinken publication of this proposed deal. If the judge is otherwise disposed, on the legal merits, to dismiss the case for time served, or to give Griner some other light sentence for possessing a teaspoon of hash oil, that will likely not now happen. Because, now that Biden is begging for Griner back, she will lose all bargaining value to Russia if she gets off with a light sentence in the trial.
Biden should have waited until after Griner's sentencing, which is expected in August, before offering a prisoner swap, which technically can't happen until Griner is a convicted prisoner anyway. That would have allowed the legal trial to play out to a possible, if unlikely, minor sentence. However, Biden couldn't wait for that commonsense process because his decision-making is dominated by partisan domestic politics.
This will work out well for Griner only if a prisoner swap deal is in fact accepted by Russia and completed fairly quickly. Otherwise, she has lost her opportunity for for a light trial sentence and may also languish in prison for years if prisoner swap negotiations drag on and on through government bureaucracies. |
Exactly.
I want her home. She is my all time favorite player. I know what she is going through is hell but this process needs patience, even if it feels like the administration is "doing nothing". Maybe they know stuff we don't know but publicly stating their offer was an unforced error. Public pressure from the Twitterati is not going to budge Russia. There was literally zero reason to divulge the offer prior to her being sentenced.
I continue to hope for the best.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 07/29/22 7:34 pm ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
Exactly.
I want her home. She is my all time favorite player. I know what she is going through is hell but this process needs patience, even if it feels like the administration is "doing nothing". Maybe they know stuff we don't know but publicly stating their offer was an unforced error. Public pressure from the Twitterati is not going to budge Russia. There was literally zero reason to divulge the offer prior to her being sentenced.
I continue to hope for the best. |
People's knowledge of what's really going on in international diplomacy is about two percent of the truth. You are in no position to know what is or isn't an "unforced error." Neither am I. Neither is anyone here. I am NOT writing this to defend Biden, Blinken, or anyone else. Maybe it's an error and maybe it isn't.
"Maybe they know stuff we don't know." You must be kidding.
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johnjohnW
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| Posted: 07/29/22 8:01 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| johnjohnW wrote: |
Exactly.
I want her home. She is my all time favorite player. I know what she is going through is hell but this process needs patience, even if it feels like the administration is "doing nothing". Maybe they know stuff we don't know but publicly stating their offer was an unforced error. Public pressure from the Twitterati is not going to budge Russia. There was literally zero reason to divulge the offer prior to her being sentenced.
I continue to hope for the best. |
People's knowledge of what's really going on in international diplomacy is about two percent of the truth. You are in no position to know what is or isn't an "unforced error." Neither am I. Neither is anyone here. I am NOT writing this to defend Biden, Blinken, or anyone else. Maybe it's an error and maybe it isn't.
"Maybe they know stuff we don't know." You must be kidding. |
Heh. You're right. Of course they know something we don't know but I am curious why they employed this strategy.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 07/29/22 8:34 pm ::: |
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| johnjohnW wrote: |
| Heh. You're right. Of course they know something we don't know but I am curious why they employed this strategy. |
Curiosity is perfectly appropriate. Curiosity is a great quality. But please consider not rushing into making judgments about matters that neither you nor I nor anyone here have much genuine information about.
My guess is that the negotiations between the U.S. and Russia over Griner and others being held by each country involve 100 other things that not a single person on this board could name. And that if a deal is made tomorrow, a month from now, six months from now, whenever, we still won't know about those 100 other things.
But that's my GUESS. I claim no important knowledge of what's going on. I offer no judgments about what is or isn't an error.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 07/29/22 9:02 pm ::: |
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| My guess is that there's some side play going on with Germany that's not obvious yet. Why would Putin think Germany would release a Russian spy/murderer? He wouldn't. Is this a deliberate attempt to stall or sabotage this Bout-BG-Whelan offer? Russia had been after a deal for the US to return a Russian hacker in addition to Bout for some time, and Lord knows we have enough other low level Russian criminals incarcerated that they could have asked for.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 07/29/22 10:21 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
Does anyone here really believe Bout isn't going to return to some version of his previous activities? He's not a "businessman," he's a freaking arms dealer.
Framing this situation in terms of colonial and racial injustice leaves me shaking my head. Bout supplied weapons throughout west Africa to numerous warlords and brutal regimes, including Charles Taylor, in exchange for blood diamonds, gold, and other natural resources. The number of innocent African men, women, and children who were killed by those weapons is unknown. In addition, he supplied arms and/or aircraft to Libya, Iraq, al-Qaeda, the Taliban, militant Islamic extremists in the Philippines, and many others. He also supplied weapons to the US in the Middle East. Most of these weapons originated in Ukraine from prior Soviet stores and manufacturing facilities there.
Releasing a white Russian billionaire whose weapons were responsible for the deaths of thousands or hundreds of thousands of impoverished Africans and Asians is both racist and elitist. Note that Putin is now trading weapons to the president of Sudan's military regime, who's already been accused of war crimes in Darfur, for gold.
And, as has already been mentioned, this puts a big target on the backs of all our citizens abroad. Putin is already asking for a spy who murdered someone back from Germany in addition to Bout. We can't win this game. |
There's far too much to unpack in this post to continue doing so here, on this thread. I'm going to start a related thread in Area 51, for any interested in that.
Re: In THIS thread for BG, I know many are talking about Whelan as a fellow citizen who's hoping for trade/release. Has anybody here followed the story of Marc Fogel, another American sentenced to 14 years for having medically prescribed cannabis in Russia? I'd think we'd all consider HIM to be as deserving of release as any of the others, no?
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Last edited by Howee on 07/29/22 11:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChicagoAnnie
Joined: 04 Sep 2009
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| Posted: 07/29/22 11:42 pm ::: |
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So, Russia's counter-offer includes Bout in addition to the US getting a Russian convicted murderer released from Germany?
This is too much. I'm burned out, and don't feel like arguing, or debating with people here about BG's situation. It accomplishes absolutely nothing.
I hope BG comes back safely. Staying away from this thread. It makes me too sad.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 07/30/22 12:53 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| Has anybody here followed the story of Marc Fogel, another American sentenced to 14 years for having medically prescribed cannabis in Russia? I'd think we'd all consider HIM to be as deserving of release as any of the others, no? |
Yes and no. I and others have posted about Fogel, a teacher in Russia and perhaps a former diplomat. But, as far as I can figure from various news reports, his case had more damaging facts than Griner's and was subject to a more severe Russian drug statute.
Griner is charged with possession for personal use of 0.7 grams of cannabis oil, which is far below the 5 gram threshold for an "exceptionally large amount". According to this article, Fogel was convicted of possession of 8 grams of oil and 11 grams of marijuana. In addition to possession, and unlike Griner, Fogel was also convicted of manufacture, acquisition and smuggling of drugs, and other articles say he was also convicted of intending to sell to students and concealment of his activities.
As I've said several times, assuming I've found the relevant Russian laws, Griner should be subject to a maximum jail sentence of three years. Fogel, on the other hand, was convicted under a law that carries a maximum jail sentence of 20 years. He got 14.
Another difference between the cases is that Fogel has not been given the Foggy Bottom diplo-speak status of "wrongfully detained" as Griner has (and Whelan).
Directly contrary to early fears, I'd say Griner is—yes—getting highly preferential treatment from the U.S government over Fogel, Whelan and probably many other Russian-jailed Americans about whom no one is reporting. |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 07/30/22 1:46 am ::: |
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HERE is the Russian read-out of the telephone call between Secretary of State Blinken and Foreign Minister Lavrov yesterday.
According to Google Translate, the Griner situation is mentioned only in the very last sentence, which says: "Regarding the possible exchange of imprisoned citizens of Russia and the United States, the Russian side strongly suggested returning to a professional, without speculative information stuffing, dialogue in the mode of 'quiet diplomacy'."
I interpret this to mean either:
(1) the Russians don't have much or any interest in responding the the U.S. deal, and are shelving the matter; or
(2) they have some interest but are annoyed at how the U.S. is trying to conduct the negotiations in public, and are genuinely encouraging the U.S. to return to a form of backroom diplomacy that the parties have used or agreed to use in the past.
Of course, I'm not a licensed Kremlinologist, so other interpretations are possible. |
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