| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 10697
Location: Minnesota
Back to top |
 Posted: 03/01/22 4:03 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
Wonder how the NBA owners feel with this story considering he’s an owner of an NBA team. Do they not care, do they now question what he does on their side, does it give them any pause?
Also if the league allows charters for all teams, do we see any of them folding because they can’t afford to? Do we start to see UMMC WNBA Verizon because the top players will only go to the top teams that will give them the perks?
_________________
"stormeo don't miss"
|
|
Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 24351
Location: London
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 4:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Some view it as pure charity—one WNBA owner proudly proclaims the value of the WNBA team to be zero, according to multiple league sources, and thus all he spends on his team is effectively a contribution toward the greater good of women’s sports |
This has to be Herb Simon, right? |
Surely he's not the only one it could be. Robert Sarver? |
|
Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
Posts: 3318
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 4:24 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| lynxmania wrote: |
| Do we start to see UMMC WNBA Verizon because the top players will only go to the top teams that will give them the perks? |
Even better (or worse, depending on your point of view). Imagine UMMC, if there wasn't a cap on how many players with American passports could be on a team?
_________________
Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 4:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| RavenDog wrote: |
| Just like the Phoenix Mercury and Taurasi did laying out, lying and cheating for close to half a season to get Griner. Today, ethics and morales are out the window. Sadly, winning is the only thing that matters regardless of how or what it takes to do so. |
I wouldn't dispute any of this except for the word "today." Cheating has ALWAYS been part of sports in the U.S. I'm not saying that to justify cheating, just to note the historical truth.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 4:30 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| root_thing wrote: |
| I'm not saying that the Liberty shouldn't be fined, but all this moralizing and comparing it to the Astros intentionally cheating is total nonsense! The Tsai's were frustrated that what looked like a perfectly good solution for the whole league was voted down. Some owners worried that the deal wouldn't be renewed after three years and then they'd have to pay for it themselves. That's an expectation of failure. More than anything, it's probably what caused Tsai to get frustrated and go off on his own. |
Thank you. Exactly right.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 4:33 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Richyyy wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Some view it as pure charity—one WNBA owner proudly proclaims the value of the WNBA team to be zero, according to multiple league sources, and thus all he spends on his team is effectively a contribution toward the greater good of women’s sports |
This has to be Herb Simon, right? |
Surely he's not the only one it could be. Robert Sarver? |
My second choice would be Ted Leonsis. It's gotta be one of the NBA owners and it's clearly not Tsai. The new Lynx/Timberwolves owners haven't had time to garner such a reputation.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011
Posts: 10697
Location: Minnesota
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 6:16 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
https://twitter.com/andrewjoepotter/status/1498788980468428807?s=21
| Quote: |
The WNBA disputes the claim that the New York Liberty presented the league with a plan to have chartered flights covered for every team for a period of three years.
No such offer has been presented yet, per a WNBA spokesperson: |
_________________
"stormeo don't miss"
|
|
NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
Posts: 14097
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 6:16 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
People may not be entirely familiar with the circumstances surrounding this particular situation, which even by WNBA standards was kind of extreme. They had travel delays for back-to-back games. Two lengthy delays within I believe 48 hours. Joe Tsai tried to find a workable solution and was rebuffed. So while the Liberty violated the letter of the CBA and were punished with a hefty fine, in principle I understand why they did it. They got blown out the next game vs. Connecticut, which was the game leading to the Olympic break. So they got zero competitive advantage out of it anyway.
Besides that, the delays were so extreme that it wasn’t even a matter of competitive advantage at that point. It was a matter of them being treated like human beings. Calling them cheaters and comparing them to the Astros isn’t even a comparison worth discussing.
Yet the WNBA didn’t care about competitive advantage when they made the Liberty play a home game in a major storm with no fans, rather than attempting to reschedule the game. A game the Liberty lost by one possession.
_________________
The poster formerly known as LibWNBAFan.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
|
justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 8407
Location: Northfield, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 6:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Let's be clear here: if the WNBA (the NBA) wanted to the league could allow charter flights and keep the "competitive balance", all without burdening the less wealthy owners if they really wanted to. The easiest way would just be to have the WNBA itself spring for the check. They could also institute some sort of "profit sharing" where the more wealthy owners might be willing to offset the costs for teams that might not have the resources.
If people haven't listened to it, this is an outstanding podcast where David Berri breaks down a lot of the assumptions about the WNBA's finances and adds deeper perspective to how the league postures itself, along with what they are and are not doing well.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/wnba-nation/id1280117161?i=1000550104285
_________________
↑↑↓↓←→←→BA
|
|
Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18030
Location: Queens
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 6:58 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on this.
On one hand, a deal is a deal. Travel arrangements were hashed out in the CBA. If there were issues, they should have been brought up and addressed at that time and incorporated into those negotiations. If I’m infuraiated at the players who are looking to overturn the prioritization clause, I can’t turn around and support an owner running roughshod over the travel clause.
On the other hand, I’m a Liberty fan, and have been since I was 12. There’s no way that’s not going to color my thinking, and I acknowledge that. All things considered, it’s a nice change to have an owner who tells the league to stick it where the sun shineth not in support of the players instead of despite the players.
On the other hand (apparently I’m a Machamp now, with four arms and a propensity to fight), I’m a WNBA fan, and have been since I was 12. There’s no way that’s not going to color my thinking, and I acknowledge that. The security and continuity of the league is ultimately more important than the comfort of one cohort of players. Those of us who have been around the block have seen the league’s history torn right out of it. We’ve seen what happens when passion runs dry and money runs out, when people richer than most of us will ever be get bored with their new plaything. And we’ve seen what happens when the league moves too fast and expands too much too soon. I wouldn’t want to be the commissioner left holding the bag if the league’s reach exceeds its grasp.
On the other hand, you grow or you die. Sometimes risk is necessary, and the article lays bare the split between those who think their franchises are worth the risk of investment and those who prefer a more staid approach. Without an indication of growth, without signs that things will get bigger and better and faster and stronger, I don’t see the league holding on to its talent. I wouldn’t want to be the commissioner left holding the bag if the league fails to capitalize on its opportunities.
On the other hand, the penalties that were discussed in that article for Tsai’s violations of the CBA would do wonders to destabilize the league. Docking the number of draft picks they discussed? Stripping him of the franchise when there was already enough trouble finding an owner after Dolan decided he didn’t want the team anymore? We’ve had enough trouble finding ownership groups in this league; deliberately exiling one interested in the good of the team and the league seems to be akin to chain-gunning yourself in the legs. While it makes it clear that breaking the CBA has consequences, it also gives franchises no incentive to provide anything less than the minimum lest it somehow end up a CBA violation.
On the other hand (let’s just assume there’s an infinite number of people holding out their hands at this point) I understand the peril of an arms race where a few owners have billions and others have been wrecked by the pandemic. We’re already seeing imbalances in free agency with players building their own superteams and taking pay cuts to do so. While the teams doing that are not the teams with owners publicly stated to be willing to throw around money, how long is that scenario going to last? Fringe benefits go a long way when creature comforts are thin on the ground. And if you end up with four teams almost everyone wants to play for, a few teams that are destinations for a few players, and a few teams that players end up on by default, how long do those owners at the bottom- the ones who can’t spend at Tsai or Davis’s or Lore’s or Gottendiener’s level even if they wanted to- put up with forever being the last kid picked for gym class before they close up shop and go home?
On the other hand, who benefits from making this kind of infighting public? Does it really help the league’s image to portray a third of its owners as willing to be free-wheeling sugar daddies, and an unknown percentage as cheapskate sticks in the mud? Do we really need to give this much ammunition to people who mock us as a poverty league?
On the other hand, why would the other owners turn down three yars of having their travel costs paid for? It seems so stupid that there had to be some strings attached that didn’t support the thrust of the article and were therefore not mentioned. Then again, this league is astoundingly capable of doing a ridiculous number of self-destructive things, so I really should not be surprised.
There’s so much to unpack with this, and none of it looks good to the league, IMO.
_________________
Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
|
undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
Posts: 2864
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 7:33 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Queenie wrote: |
I have a lot of conflicting thoughts on this.
On one hand, a deal is a deal. Travel arrangements were hashed out in the CBA. If there were issues, they should have been brought up and addressed at that time and incorporated into those negotiations. If I’m infuraiated at the players who are looking to overturn the prioritization clause, I can’t turn around and support an owner running roughshod over the travel clause.
On the other hand, I’m a Liberty fan, and have been since I was 12. There’s no way that’s not going to color my thinking, and I acknowledge that. All things considered, it’s a nice change to have an owner who tells the league to stick it where the sun shineth not in support of the players instead of despite the players.
On the other hand (apparently I’m a Machamp now, with four arms and a propensity to fight), I’m a WNBA fan, and have been since I was 12. There’s no way that’s not going to color my thinking, and I acknowledge that. The security and continuity of the league is ultimately more important than the comfort of one cohort of players. Those of us who have been around the block have seen the league’s history torn right out of it. We’ve seen what happens when passion runs dry and money runs out, when people richer than most of us will ever be get bored with their new plaything. And we’ve seen what happens when the league moves too fast and expands too much too soon. I wouldn’t want to be the commissioner left holding the bag if the league’s reach exceeds its grasp.
On the other hand, you grow or you die. Sometimes risk is necessary, and the article lays bare the split between those who think their franchises are worth the risk of investment and those who prefer a more staid approach. Without an indication of growth, without signs that things will get bigger and better and faster and stronger, I don’t see the league holding on to its talent. I wouldn’t want to be the commissioner left holding the bag if the league fails to capitalize on its opportunities.
On the other hand, the penalties that were discussed in that article for Tsai’s violations of the CBA would do wonders to destabilize the league. Docking the number of draft picks they discussed? Stripping him of the franchise when there was already enough trouble finding an owner after Dolan decided he didn’t want the team anymore? We’ve had enough trouble finding ownership groups in this league; deliberately exiling one interested in the good of the team and the league seems to be akin to chain-gunning yourself in the legs. While it makes it clear that breaking the CBA has consequences, it also gives franchises no incentive to provide anything less than the minimum lest it somehow end up a CBA violation.
On the other hand (let’s just assume there’s an infinite number of people holding out their hands at this point) I understand the peril of an arms race where a few owners have billions and others have been wrecked by the pandemic. We’re already seeing imbalances in free agency with players building their own superteams and taking pay cuts to do so. While the teams doing that are not the teams with owners publicly stated to be willing to throw around money, how long is that scenario going to last? Fringe benefits go a long way when creature comforts are thin on the ground. And if you end up with four teams almost everyone wants to play for, a few teams that are destinations for a few players, and a few teams that players end up on by default, how long do those owners at the bottom- the ones who can’t spend at Tsai or Davis’s or Lore’s or Gottendiener’s level even if they wanted to- put up with forever being the last kid picked for gym class before they close up shop and go home?
On the other hand, who benefits from making this kind of infighting public? Does it really help the league’s image to portray a third of its owners as willing to be free-wheeling sugar daddies, and an unknown percentage as cheapskate sticks in the mud? Do we really need to give this much ammunition to people who mock us as a poverty league?
On the other hand, why would the other owners turn down three yars of having their travel costs paid for? It seems so stupid that there had to be some strings attached that didn’t support the thrust of the article and were therefore not mentioned. Then again, this league is astoundingly capable of doing a ridiculous number of self-destructive things, so I really should not be surprised.
There’s so much to unpack with this, and none of it looks good to the league, IMO. |
Where do I cosign? All of it
_________________
RebKell's 2021-2022 NCAA Fantasy League Regular Season Champion 🏆
|
|
WfanFrJmp
Joined: 24 May 2016
Posts: 1423
Back to top |
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 10:42 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| The W is testing the limits of "no such thing as bad publicity"
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
Posts: 4701
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/01/22 10:55 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Queenie wrote: |
| On the other hand (apparently I’m a Machamp now, with four arms and a propensity to fight), |
I counted eight 'hands' in total. So basically you would just need to borrow your husband, who is presumed to also be a Machamp here, to adequately hold up the number of points you've made.
|
|
Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18030
Location: Queens
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 12:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I wasn't sure how long I was gonna go, because there's so much going on with this! I didn't even get into the guessing game of "which owner literally values their team at zero?" (my guess at the odds: 75% Indiana, another 20% or so Phoenix, 5% a franchise not one of those two), or Phoenix's petty response on Twitter (which upped my estimation of Sarver being the owner pretending his team is a charity case, because hit dogs holler; on the other hand, if it was Phoenix, we probably would have heard about it from Taurasi. Volubly. With swear words. Possibly in multiple languages), or the implication that Davis opened his checkbook for Hammon because he couldn't open it for the players (which ties back to Cambage's comments and trickles down to "then why did you take a lower offer, Elizabeth?").
(also, I mean, to be more realistic I'm a shiny Slakoth)
_________________
Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
|
|
ChicagoAnnie
Joined: 04 Sep 2009
Posts: 9199
Location: St. Paul, MN
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 12:06 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Not sure where the truth lies, but I am siding with the guy who reached for his wallet, and paid to charter his team.
|
|
Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
Posts: 5065
Location: New York City
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 12:26 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ChicagoAnnie wrote: |
Not sure where the truth lies, but I am siding with the guy who reached for his wallet, and paid to charter his team. |
One of the potentially volatile aspects of this mess: the league is basically calling Joe and Clara Tsai liars. Obviously there have already been bad feelings about all of this; now there is a public "dispute" about what did or didn't happen. Whatever the truth (I'm a Liberty fan and am with Joe and Clara), this makes the WNBA look awful.
_________________
Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
|
|
awhom111
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
Posts: 4228
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 12:36 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| In some alternate timeline, the Liberty franchise was actually taken away and they decided to start a rival league instead. |
|
Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 5377
Location: Chocolate Paradise
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 1:19 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| ChicagoAnnie wrote: |
Not sure where the truth lies, but I am siding with the guy who reached for his wallet, and paid to charter his team. |
One of the potentially volatile aspects of this mess: the league is basically calling Joe and Clara Tsai liars. Obviously there have already been bad feelings about all of this; now there is a public "dispute" about what did or didn't happen. Whatever the truth (I'm a Liberty fan and am with Joe and Clara), this makes the WNBA look awful. |
If the Liberty owners have any documentation that they presented this deal to the league, they should show it to the world. Integrity is everything.
_________________
You can win, as long as you keep your head to the SKY! Be OPTIMISTIC!
|
|
Michelle89
Joined: 17 Nov 2010
Posts: 16464
Location: Holland
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 5:17 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Bill Laimbeer wanted to pay for better travel arrangements for his Vegas team last season aswell right? But he was stopped by the wnba
_________________
"Sue Bird and Lauren Jackson were and are the dynamic duo. They're the one-two punch. They're all the clich�s possible to describe people that perfectly complement each other, who make each other better and also bring out the best in the team." �Karen Bryant
|
|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21928
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 7:05 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Lucky to get off with a purely financial penalty IMO. Competition integrity is not something to mess with lightly.
Overall though I'd rate it as a good skirmish. The league needs more of these.
But the league also can't afford to lose a couple of teams because owners who just got done getting a CBA finalised are suddenly expected to pour in more cash.
Personally I think that charter flights offer terrible bang-for-your-buck in terms of cost vs benefit.
If you're a league with too much money then by all means go for it.
But when you're a league with a pitiful salary cap like this, it doesn't add up for me.
Work out the cost difference over a season for the 2 flight options, and ask the players if they'd rather take the charter flights or just 50% of the cost difference as salary. Pretty sure the majority would vote for the latter in an instant. But sure, until a player has done the math on that I'm cool with them taking to social media to wish for better conditions. I wish it for them as well. I don't think we're quite there yet but I'd be happy to be wrong.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66905
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 7:52 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| The salary increase thing is a red herring. They were going to be comped the charters. Nobody was offering to comp a raise for the players.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
Luuuc
#NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 21928
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/02/22 8:24 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| If there was an offer of free charters for every team, I'm struggling to see what would motivate the league to decline it. Seems very win-win to me in terms of image and the ability to put the best product on the floor.
_________________
Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
|
|
|
|
