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awhom111



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PostPosted: 02/11/22 1:05 am    ::: WNBA Prioritization Reply Reply with quote

It seems like this deserves its own thread at this point.

In the CBA, it is Section 9 of Article XIV.

A few key points:
-The suspension parts are from the WNBA, which I assume means that it is mandatory and not at someone's discretion.
-They do not affect players with 0, 1, or 2 years of service so young players can take whatever offer makes the most sense to them and a player who has not played in the WNBA and blows up in France or somewhere will still have a chance.
-It is not possible to get around this simply by not signing a contract until you are ready to report.

I suppose we will get an indicator by mid-summer whether some of the leagues that have a tradition of ending quite late will end a little earlier, although European leagues do tend to end slightly earlier in odd-number years to give national team players a break before national team training camp.

I wonder if WNBA out clauses will be necessary for players in leagues that play at the same time as the WNBA. Like if Erika De Souza is playing in the Brazilian league still at that point, is the WNBA going to inform her that she's been suspended for the season?
root_thing



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PostPosted: 02/11/22 1:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Erika de Souza has been effectively suspended from the WNBA for the last 4 seasons. Wink



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PostPosted: 02/11/22 11:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I've read in a couple of places that Stewart is signing one-year contracts in an effort to circumvent the Prioritization rules. Is this actually possible? If so, isn't this a truck-size hole in the rules? What are the chances the WNBA moves to close the loophole -- or is this a safety valve that allows them to avoid confrontations and save face?



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Richyyy



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PostPosted: 02/11/22 12:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As awhom111 said, signing one-year deals makes barely any difference. They clearly saw that potential route to get round things coming a mile off.

Basically, in 2023, players under contract before training camp or who sign during camp will be fined 1% of their base salary for every day of camp they're late. Including retroactive fines if you don't sign until late in the camp period. On top of that, if you're signed and don't show up by the start of the regular season, or if you're unsigned but your overseas obligations aren't completed by the start of the regular season, you're automatically suspended for the year (or 'ineligible to sign' if you haven't signed yet, given there'd be nothing to suspend).

In 2024 (and onwards), it gets stricter. They remove the fines part from the Prioritization section entirely, and just say if you're not there by the start of the season - which in this case I believe means the start of training camp, not the regular season - or May 1st (whichever is later), you're essentially done for the year. If you're already under contract before camp/May 1, they just suspend you; if you're not, your 'Off-Season Playing Obligations' have to be finished by the start of camp or you're ineligible to sign for the rest of the year. So it kinda looks like, if you're unsigned, you could get away with being on vacation instead of showing up on time for camp. But if you're still playing for Team X in any other league, you're done for the WNBA that year.

As awhom111 said, there are exceptions in that any player with 0-2 Years of Service can do what they like, and representing a national team is allowed, but that's about it.



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FrozenLVFan



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PostPosted: 02/11/22 1:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This seems rather discriminatory. The WNBA is going to suspend its season every 4 years so the 12 best USA players can go to the Olympics (and other countries' players as well), but they're going to suspend the non-Olympic players if they're involved in other leagues when they're the ones that probably need the extra salary the most?


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PostPosted: 02/11/22 1:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The players agreed to prioritization in the CBA. If they've got a problem with it now, they should complain to the union.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 02/11/22 2:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The players agreed to prioritization in the CBA. If they've got a problem with it now, they should complain to the union.


I have to imagine that it was part of the negotiation around raising salaries.


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PostPosted: 02/12/22 12:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
The players agreed to prioritization in the CBA. If they've got a problem with it now, they should complain to the union.


Stewart should absolutely address her concerns to her team's union rep.



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 02/12/22 12:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would not be surprised if there were hopes from some players that this would put a little pressure on international leagues to compact their schedules a bit to finish in April.
hyperetic



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PostPosted: 02/16/22 1:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
pilight wrote:
The players agreed to prioritization in the CBA. If they've got a problem with it now, they should complain to the union.


I have to imagine that it was part of the negotiation around raising salaries.


So the raise in salaries is significant enough to warrant foregoing lucrative work overseas in the offseason?
PUmatty



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PostPosted: 02/16/22 4:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

hyperetic wrote:
PUmatty wrote:
pilight wrote:
The players agreed to prioritization in the CBA. If they've got a problem with it now, they should complain to the union.


I have to imagine that it was part of the negotiation around raising salaries.


So the raise in salaries is significant enough to warrant foregoing lucrative work overseas in the offseason?


I am more thinking that the owners would be unlikely to raise salaries dramatically without some kind of quid pro quo about having players around more consistently.


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PostPosted: 04/16/22 12:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
WNBA prioritization and overseas play: How they will impact the league and its players going forward

https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/33740278/wnba-prioritization-overseas-play-how-impact-league-players-going-forward



It is incredibly fascinating thinking about the timing of everything, when it comes to the Priority Clause being something players (like Stewart) have had to start considering when re-signing really as of just this year – we've only heard crickets about it since the current CBA was established up until this past free agency – as it has coincided with Griner being detained in perhaps the country that has historically paid the star wbb players the highest out of any country/League in the world. I hesitate to say something shitty like "perfect timing," since a sane empathetic person would wish it never happened to Griner at all. But, much like covid escaping China's walls and infiltrating the rest of the world, Griner getting arrested happened; So we may as well see the silver linings in it and hope it can influence what the players do in the future, in which the League can respond to their actions accordingly.

This part of the article was the one I wish had gone into more detail the most:

Quote:
How many players will prioritization impact?

That was hard to gauge before everything that has gone on in Russia in the past few months, and even harder to say now, because the overseas women's basketball market is obviously affected by Russia's war on Ukraine. WNBA players other than Griner, who was detained, all left Russia not that long after the invasion. With both the conflict and global economic sanctions against Russia, how much professional women's basketball will be played there in the coming year remains to be seen. If the Russian basketball market dries up, even for a brief period, that has a domino effect on other countries.


My question is, is there more to this domino effect other than that Russia-regular superstars would simply spread out into other Leagues if they couldn't/refused to play in Russia again and it would create shifts in talent pools? Or is there much more of an economic component to it all that is being underserved here in this mention? Speak up if you have any thoughts, as it's a bit unclear to me.


Sue Bird's soundbites in this I found a bit interesting as well.

Quote:
"I don't know that a Paige Bueckers -- and all the kids coming up behind her -- will ever need to go overseas, Bird said. "Why do we go? Mostly we go because there's a ton of money. Some people go to work on their games. But some people also go -- and Diana (Taurasi) will tell you this -- she went because of the money and because she's a basketball player. And that's what basketball players do: They want to play.

"But now we have Athletes Unlimited, 3x3 is getting bigger, so there are more ways to play at home. If I'm 25 and I can make anywhere close to the same money playing at home, I stay home. But everyone is different."


It has been said that Bueckers 'is estimated to' earn $63k per social media post, for whatever any of that's worth. It's clear though that she is currently making big bucks, and she's apparently not the only wcbb player. To no one's surprise, some of the most followed girls/women's basketball players haven't even turned pro yet, which may come into play down the line with the growth/expansion of NIL. You also have current WNBA stars/well-known players like A'ja Wilson, Sabrina Ionescu, Skylar Diggins-Smith, and Elena Delle Donne who already haven't been playing overseas for most of their pro careers (well, maybe Sabrina will someday, especially considering her Romanian ties & heritage). Could the trend actually be headed in that direction for star players? Ultimately it only really matters with that upper echelon category, since role players really are a dime a dozen; The more who do the shorter overseas Leagues (like Australia) or only do AU hoops in the offseason – or actually don't play in the offseason entirely (a novel concept) – will be able to 'prioritize' the W more and stand out amongst those who will probably always be running into prior foreign scheduling conflicts by making their living in Europe.

Quote:
The end of the WNBA season conflicts with college and pro football and playoff baseball, and it's around the time the NBA and NHL seasons launch. The availability of television windows and venues in the summer were primary reasons the WNBA was developed to be held when it is.

The league has faced the "why don't you expand the schedule" and "why don't you play in traditional basketball season" questions countless times over the past 25 years, but the obstacles to both remain the same.


The end of the W season being anytime in fall will make it always conflict with football. At least if it ended in mid-November, baseball season will have been over with by then, and the college wbb season will have only just started. That's always been my preference, instead of playing a 'traditional' basketball season where you're competing for media attention with the NBA, both men's and women's college basketball, and the NFL – well, and the NHL, for good measure. Leagues in other countries can get away with doing it – not this one. I wouldn't want wcbb and the W's seasons to overlap anyway. April-November is the League's best bet at playing a legitimately expanded schedule (instead of this half-assed 34-to-36-games bullshit that doesn't actually accomplish a damn thing).


wnbafan



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PostPosted: 04/16/22 6:57 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hopefully the Athletes Unlimited league will replace going overseas for a lot of these players.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching those games.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 04/16/22 9:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I haven't seen any discussion about the loss of China as a lucrative option for players. China is where people like Tina Charles used to go to play a shorter season, still make a lot of money, and also get to WNBA training camp on time. With the prioritization rules, China would've been the best choice available. However, China's no-tolerance Covid rules have left foreign players locked out. Russia and China were the two highest-paying countries that also provided a lot of jobs. These opportunities have suddenly disappeared, which leaves players scrambling to secure the few slots left in Europe. Based on supply and demand, that has to exert downward pressure on salaries. Then throw in the prioritization effect where players need to leave early to get to WNBA camp. They will either have to skip the WNBA season or take an even larger pay cut for being partial-year players who disappear at playoff time.

One possible side-effect of the China lockout is that Chinese players now seem available to play in the WNBA. Han Xu is already in camp with the Liberty and Li Yueru signed a contract with Chicago. This is totally unexpected. Given that the World Cup starts in September, and US-China relations are at a low point, one would think this is the least likely season we would see Chinese players. However, Jackie Powell pointed out that Han's chances of returning to the US improved when China changed coaches. I wonder if the new administration at Team China decided that their best young players need the challenge of facing Western players in order to keep developing. Since the lockout, that opportunity has mostly vanished. Given the already weakened state of the Chinese league, they can't send their best players to Europe for the winter season. So, the alternative is to send them to the WNBA during the summer. I'm pretty sure China is not making Li and Han available to keep them happy or to benefit the WNBA. It's being done because China Basketball thinks they'll get something out of it. Sending Li Yueru off to play for the reigning WNBA champions sounds like a smart idea. Giving Han Xu a chance to work with Brittney Griner's long-time coach, who also coached Liz Cambage, seems like a perfect match. China's young team has been improving, but they've fallen just short of medaling at major tournaments. The Chinese bureaucracy probably wants to toughen them up. The WNBA can be viewed as the basketball equivalent of finishing school.



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 04/16/22 3:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I still wonder about enforcement on people who play in leagues that do not run on the traditional calendar and people who have been out of the league for a while. Like let's say that Alanna Smith gets waived this season and has no offers early in free agency next season. Trying to stay in shape and looking to earn at least a little money playing, she then signs with an NBL1 team and plays there before WNBA training camps start. If a WNBA team is interested in signing her later in the season, would the league really step in and tell them that she is ineligible to sign?

root_thing wrote:
I haven't seen any discussion about the loss of China as a lucrative option for players. China is where people like Tina Charles used to go to play a shorter season, still make a lot of money, and also get to WNBA training camp on time. With the prioritization rules, China would've been the best choice available. However, China's no-tolerance Covid rules have left foreign players locked out. Russia and China were the two highest-paying countries that also provided a lot of jobs. These opportunities have suddenly disappeared, which leaves players scrambling to secure the few slots left in Europe. Based on supply and demand, that has to exert downward pressure on salaries. Then throw in the prioritization effect where players need to leave early to get to WNBA camp. They will either have to skip the WNBA season or take an even larger pay cut for being partial-year players who disappear at playoff time.

One possible side-effect of the China lockout is that Chinese players now seem available to play in the WNBA. Han Xu is already in camp with the Liberty and Li Yueru signed a contract with Chicago. This is totally unexpected. Given that the World Cup starts in September, and US-China relations are at a low point, one would think this is the least likely season we would see Chinese players. However, Jackie Powell pointed out that Han's chances of returning to the US improved when China changed coaches. I wonder if the new administration at Team China decided that their best young players need the challenge of facing Western players in order to keep developing. Since the lockout, that opportunity has mostly vanished. Given the already weakened state of the Chinese league, they can't send their best players to Europe for the winter season. So, the alternative is to send them to the WNBA during the summer. I'm pretty sure China is not making Li and Han available to keep them happy or to benefit the WNBA. It's being done because China Basketball thinks they'll get something out of it. Sending Li Yueru off to play for the reigning WNBA champions sounds like a smart idea. Giving Han Xu a chance to work with Brittney Griner's long-time coach, who also coached Liz Cambage, seems like a perfect match. China's young team has been improving, but they've fallen just short of medaling at major tournaments. The Chinese bureaucracy probably wants to toughen them up. The WNBA can be viewed as the basketball equivalent of finishing school.


I don't think that it was the COVID policies that kept foreign players away from China, although on the men's side, foreign players were not allowed to play for something like four weeks after arriving in the country. It seems more like most club team owners did not have the money to fund a longer season, which resulted in a couple of teams with more spending power hoarding all of the best players. It will be interesting to see the philosophical switch as South Korea also still does not have foreign players in their league and both countries were probably on some level trying to imitate Japan, which does not have foreign players in their league.

I would not expect American media to pick up on trends in overseas leagues barring big news like the Griner situation. Turkey having a few struggles on the economic front has reduced the level of player that they are signing too.
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PostPosted: 04/16/22 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I wonder if we see more contracts like the kind of deal Kelsey Plum seemed to strike with Galatasaray. She only joined them part-way through the season, missed a game or two to go back to the US for a Team USA camp, and once the EuroCup season was over she was off home, before the Turkish playoffs even began. Seemed like some kind of part-time agreement where she was very much in control.

If you want the top players, who've proven that they're good enough to be worth adapting for, you may have to work along their schedule. Especially if the Russian money is out of the picture.



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root_thing



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PostPosted: 04/16/22 7:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

awhom111 wrote:

I don't think that it was the COVID policies that kept foreign players away from China, although on the men's side, foreign players were not allowed to play for something like four weeks after arriving in the country. It seems more like most club team owners did not have the money to fund a longer season, which resulted in a couple of teams with more spending power hoarding all of the best players.


Asia-basket.com lists 262 women who played in China this season. Every one of them has a Chinese name as far as I can tell. If foreign players were allowed in the league this season, then it looks like nobody took advantage.



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 04/16/22 11:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Richyyy wrote:
I wonder if we see more contracts like the kind of deal Kelsey Plum seemed to strike with Galatasaray. She only joined them part-way through the season, missed a game or two to go back to the US for a Team USA camp, and once the EuroCup season was over she was off home, before the Turkish playoffs even began. Seemed like some kind of part-time agreement where she was very much in control.

If you want the top players, who've proven that they're good enough to be worth adapting for, you may have to work along their schedule. Especially if the Russian money is out of the picture.


I think that could happen in a few specific cases. Galatasaray wanted to win EuroCup, but knew that it would be nearly impossible to form a roster that could qualify them for EuroLeague next season so they were fine with a deal that did not last the season. Some of the Turkish teams that have been carrying way more foreign players than allowed for domestic league play might also have their contracts expire after the end of FIBA competitions instead of holding all of them as insurance for the playoffs.

root_thing wrote:
awhom111 wrote:

I don't think that it was the COVID policies that kept foreign players away from China, although on the men's side, foreign players were not allowed to play for something like four weeks after arriving in the country. It seems more like most club team owners did not have the money to fund a longer season, which resulted in a couple of teams with more spending power hoarding all of the best players.


Asia-basket.com lists 262 women who played in China this season. Every one of them has a Chinese name as far as I can tell. If foreign players were allowed in the league this season, then it looks like nobody took advantage.


I meant that the teams in the league did not want foreign players, not that government restrictions prevented foreign players from entering the country. There was supposed to be a player from Hong Kong this season along with the usual players from Taiwan, but I am not sure if she ever ended up getting in a game.
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PostPosted: 04/17/22 6:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I really can’t see them suspending for the year ALL unsigned veteran players who aren’t in the United States by the time training camp starts. It makes no sense. Those players aren’t WNBA players if they aren’t under contract and it isn’t like they could go to training camp if they were here since they aren’t signed to a team.

Also, that would means that NOBODY could sign a veteran player once training camp started. You have an injury, you would be limited to players of 3 years or less experience for the entire season. I just can’t see the W wanting to make it so unsigned veterans can’t play if a team needs them and wants to sign them.

So if you agree that a team should be able to sign an unsigned vet after training camp starts, why couldn’t that vet be Stewart? Or Vandersloot? Or any other vet who hasn’t signed a contract?

I think Stewie has found a loophole. Or the W has just screwed itself.



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PostPosted: 04/17/22 2:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

sithinfiltrator wrote:
I really can’t see them suspending for the year ALL unsigned veteran players who aren’t in the United States by the time training camp starts. It makes no sense. Those players aren’t WNBA players if they aren’t under contract and it isn’t like they could go to training camp if they were here since they aren’t signed to a team.

Also, that would means that NOBODY could sign a veteran player once training camp started. You have an injury, you would be limited to players of 3 years or less experience for the entire season. I just can’t see the W wanting to make it so unsigned veterans can’t play if a team needs them and wants to sign them.

So if you agree that a team should be able to sign an unsigned vet after training camp starts, why couldn’t that vet be Stewart? Or Vandersloot? Or any other vet who hasn’t signed a contract?

I think Stewie has found a loophole. Or the W has just screwed itself.

Thanks for making this post. I was thinking the same thoughts the past few days and was trying to find the right words to say. You said those words very eloquently. Thanks again.🙏



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awhom111



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PostPosted: 04/17/22 4:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So are covered non-contracted players who are with their national teams outside of the allowed window also subject to this? Does 3x3 competition fall under the same guidelines? Is it okay if they practice if they do not play in an exhibition game?

Gotta love the all-encompassing definition of Off-Season Playing Obligation:
(bb) “Off-Season Playing Obligation” means (i) a contract or agreement
between a player and any entity that requires the player to play basketball in a professional
basketball league other than the WNBA during the Off-Season and/or during a Season or (ii) any
playing services provided by the player to any entity other than the WNBA, even if such services
are not contractual and even if such entity is not a professional basketball league.
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PostPosted: 04/17/22 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

With Russia out of picture for the foreseeable future, that may change Stewie’s perspective. They’re the ones with the lucrative contracts. She’s the only one I’ve noticed being vocal about prioritizing.

In a moment of honesty, Stewart admitted not playing in the WNBA is not realistic for her. It’s in the video I posted in the all-encompassing NYL thread. It’s even less realistic now that Russia is out of the picture. Even if the war ends soon, is the world going to be quick to forgive Russia just in the interest of a healthy global economy?



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PostPosted: 04/18/22 2:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think Ambassador Stewart has already proven there is a different set of rules for elite players.


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PostPosted: 04/18/22 2:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yep and this was a whole smoke screen.


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PostPosted: 04/18/22 7:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Randy wrote:
I think Ambassador Stewart has already proven there is a different set of rules for elite players.


Some elite players anyway



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