| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Joe Foss
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 4066
Back to top |
 Posted: 04/22/14 5:32 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
Looks like Mechelle Voepel will be discussing this issue during her chat at noon Eastern today.
| Quote: |
| Will discuss Diamond DeShields transfer. Plus Kansas State refusing to release Leti Romero, which has drawn a lot of public ire toward KSU. |
_________________
Ohio Bobcats WBB Fan
|
|
scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 8869
Location: Niagara Falls
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 7:47 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| PUmatty wrote: |
My point was that despite what Clay has decided, this actually happens in business all the time. It is simply not true that companies and other employers don't restrain employees "ability to switch employers. |
here is a prime example of employers joining together to not 'poach' from the other silicon valley tech firms which would eliminate the employees ability to get pay increases via a job change and possible bidding war for the employee:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/business/in-silicon-valley-thriller-a-settlement-may-preclude-the-finale.html?hpw&rref=business
SAN FRANCISCO After years of legal skirmishes, four leading Silicon Valley companies are scheduled to go on trial next month on claims of conspiring to keep their employees down.
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 9:19 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| scullyfu wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
My point was that despite what Clay has decided, this actually happens in business all the time. It is simply not true that companies and other employers don't restrain employees "ability to switch employers. |
here is a prime example of employers joining together to not 'poach' from the other silicon valley tech firms which would eliminate the employees ability to get pay increases via a job change and possible bidding war for the employee:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/business/in-silicon-valley-thriller-a-settlement-may-preclude-the-finale.html?hpw&rref=business
SAN FRANCISCO After years of legal skirmishes, four leading Silicon Valley companies are scheduled to go on trial next month on claims of conspiring to keep their employees down. |
To be clear, this behavior was illegal. (And, as the URL suggests, it's likely this one will settle before it goes to trial.) It's also different from the NLI.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11205
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 9:48 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| beknighted wrote: |
| scullyfu wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
My point was that despite what Clay has decided, this actually happens in business all the time. It is simply not true that companies and other employers don't restrain employees "ability to switch employers. |
here is a prime example of employers joining together to not 'poach' from the other silicon valley tech firms which would eliminate the employees ability to get pay increases via a job change and possible bidding war for the employee:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/business/in-silicon-valley-thriller-a-settlement-may-preclude-the-finale.html?hpw&rref=business
SAN FRANCISCO After years of legal skirmishes, four leading Silicon Valley companies are scheduled to go on trial next month on claims of conspiring to keep their employees down. |
To be clear, this behavior was illegal. (And, as the URL suggests, it's likely this one will settle before it goes to trial.) It's also different from the NLI. |
So here's my question about the non-compete (a good point, by the way): Can a college player find a job (scholarship) that does not include a non-compete clause? Can a normal employee?
Or, to put it another way, presumably a potential employee could negotiate with his new company (as I have done) about the length of, or potential financial penalty, if he or she decides to leave the company he or she is considering. There are, in short, options, though certain cartels might restrain those options.
Which leads me to again ask: What would be wrong with an association that represented college athletes on scholarship? What harm would it do if it gave employees/athletes a mechanism to redress perceived greivances?
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 11:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| scullyfu wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
My point was that despite what Clay has decided, this actually happens in business all the time. It is simply not true that companies and other employers don't restrain employees "ability to switch employers. |
here is a prime example of employers joining together to not 'poach' from the other silicon valley tech firms which would eliminate the employees ability to get pay increases via a job change and possible bidding war for the employee:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/business/in-silicon-valley-thriller-a-settlement-may-preclude-the-finale.html?hpw&rref=business
SAN FRANCISCO After years of legal skirmishes, four leading Silicon Valley companies are scheduled to go on trial next month on claims of conspiring to keep their employees down. |
To be clear, this behavior was illegal. (And, as the URL suggests, it's likely this one will settle before it goes to trial.) It's also different from the NLI. |
So here's my question about the non-compete (a good point, by the way): Can a college player find a job (scholarship) that does not include a non-compete clause? Can a normal employee?
Or, to put it another way, presumably a potential employee could negotiate with his new company (as I have done) about the length of, or potential financial penalty, if he or she decides to leave the company he or she is considering. There are, in short, options, though certain cartels might restrain those options.
Which leads me to again ask: What would be wrong with an association that represented college athletes on scholarship? What harm would it do if it gave employees/athletes a mechanism to redress perceived greivances? |
Above a certain level in most companies, a non-compete clause is pretty much guaranteed. The reasoning is based on value to the company, and it's fair to say that similar reasoning might apply to basketball players.
As for your question, I will refer you to my earlier answer.
|
|
Matt5762
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 607
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 1:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| beknighted wrote: |
Above a certain level in most companies, a non-compete clause is pretty much guaranteed. The reasoning is based on value to the company, and it's fair to say that similar reasoning might apply to basketball players.
As for your question, I will refer you to my earlier answer. |
So, if all things are equal, shouldn't it be the coaches (the CEOs so to speak) that are signing non-compete clauses, not the student athletes? Isn't a head coach far more valuable to the university than any 1 student athlete?
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 2:00 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Matt5762 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
Above a certain level in most companies, a non-compete clause is pretty much guaranteed. The reasoning is based on value to the company, and it's fair to say that similar reasoning might apply to basketball players.
As for your question, I will refer you to my earlier answer. |
So, if all things are equal, shouldn't it be the coaches (the CEOs so to speak) that are signing non-compete clauses, not the student athletes? Isn't a head coach far more valuable to the university than any 1 student athlete? |
A fair question, and I probably should have been more precise. Non-competes are not that common at the very tippy-top of the corporate ladder because those people have bargaining leverage. (You will see them in severance agreements for CEOs and the like, say after a corporate takeover.) On the other hand, they're very common in jobs like TV news anchors, who probably correspond more directly to the athletes on a college team.
Most coaches have either provisions that require them to complete their contracts or buyouts if they go somewhere else mid-contract. Buyouts are routinely enforced, although the clauses requiring them to complete their contracts often are not. These are rough equivalents to non-competes, but they're not quite the same.
And I should be clear here that nothing I've been saying should be read as suggesting even a little tiny bit that I approve of what's going on here. I think athletes should be given their releases more or less for any reason they want, and particularly when there's been a coaching change.
|
|
gymrat32
Joined: 21 Aug 2012
Posts: 60
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 4:33 pm ::: The negative press continues... |
Reply |
|
From Twitter: https://twitter.com/Hoopsking1968
Hoopsking1968
@MikeFlynn826 @cterrier100 @JayBilas @kstate_pres I've already red flagged KSU and sent emails out to over 25 local HS's on the State of KS.
Retweeted by MikeFlynn826
_________________
"Don't let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do." John Wooden
|
|
ksuwbbfan
Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 98
Location: Kansas
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/22/14 7:17 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
"One source with information about the women's program did tell GoPowercat.com that all matters regarding the women's basketball program have been slowed by someone's attempt to destroy records, both in paper and digital formats, concerning the program and its players, including their recruitment and medical histories."
"Another source also stated that there was a lot going on inside the program that has been learned following Patterson's firing that has strongly reinforced the decision to fire her as coach."
https://kansasstate.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1634056
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15758
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
|
Joe Foss
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 4066
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/23/14 6:12 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I guess it's progress that Kansas State's AD John Currie now realizes that the university is getting a black eye and is trying some damage control, even if only through his twitter account. But he can't have it both ways. Last week we were told that K-State's published policy was to rarely grant requests for releases. This week Currie says that it's rare for the university to refuse such requests. Then he uses innuendo to imply that something improper is going on in Romero's case (although of course he can't discuss it due to privacy concerns).
It's not going to work. The university is sinking deeper into their self-created morass. If Currie wants to end the damage, he should stop worrying about whether or not Romero will end up playing for a school that hired one of the assistants Currie fired, and simply grant her release.
_________________
Ohio Bobcats WBB Fan
|
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/23/14 7:06 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Wow...sounds like a ton of issues are swirling around this program. The cork was Patterson and now that she has been removed, it is all spilling out.
Can't wait to see what is left once the dust settles...
|
|
NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/23/14 8:27 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Shalee Lehning....interesting to see where she lands and If Romero tries to follow.
|
|
Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 1739
Location: Seattle
Back to top |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7863
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/23/14 11:33 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ksuwbbfan wrote: |
"One source with information about the women's program did tell GoPowercat.com that all matters regarding the women's basketball program have been slowed by someone's attempt to destroy records, both in paper and digital formats, concerning the program and its players, including their recruitment and medical histories."
"Another source also stated that there was a lot going on inside the program that has been learned following Patterson's firing that has strongly reinforced the decision to fire her as coach."
https://kansasstate.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1634056 |
You know, this could all be true..or not. People and programs have been known to lie about stuff to make themselves look better, and since Patterson is not there to defend herself, it could also be "damage control" stories made up out of whole cloth or slanted to cast the athletic department in a more favorable light. I refer you to Chris Christie's in-house investigation, or numerous other "investigations" and "reports" of the same type. Playing devil's advocate here because I think that is important.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 67096
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/30/14 8:31 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Romero case should lead to reform
http://msn.foxsports.com/kansas-city/story/k-state-s-romero-case-should-inspire-ncaa-reform-of-transfer-rules-042914
| Quote: |
| Is the opportunity to deny a transfer request in the "best interests" of the student-athlete, as the NCAA keeps insisting is its primary concern, or the best interests of the institution that holds his or her fate in its grasp? |
_________________
I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
Last edited by pilight on 05/01/14 5:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7863
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/30/14 11:54 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
Romero case should lead to reform
http://msn.foxsports.com/kansas-city/story/k-state-s-romero-case-should-
inspire-ncaa-reform-of-transfer-rules-042914
| Quote: |
| Is the opportunity to deny a transfer request in the "best interests" of the student-athlete, as the NCAA keeps insisting is its primary concern, or the best interests of the institution that holds his or her fate in its grasp? |
|
BAD LINK!
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
Joe Foss
Joined: 23 Aug 2007
Posts: 4066
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/01/14 5:46 am ::: |
Reply |
|
[quote="summertime blues"]
| pilight wrote: |
Romero case should lead to reform
http://msn.foxsports.com/kansas-city/story/k-state-s-romero-case-should-
inspire-ncaa-reform-of-transfer-rules-042914
| Quote: |
| Is the opportunity to deny a transfer request in the "best interests" of the student-athlete, as the NCAA keeps insisting is its primary concern, or the best interests of the institution that holds his or her fate in its grasp? |
|
BAD LINK!
I get an error message when I click on this link too, but Hoopfeed has the same link that works fine.
_________________
Ohio Bobcats WBB Fan
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7863
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/01/14 5:40 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
[quote="Joe Foss"]
| summertime blues wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
Romero case should lead to reform
http://msn.foxsports.com/kansas-city/story/k-state-s-romero-case-should-
inspire-ncaa-reform-of-transfer-rules-042914
| Quote: |
| Is the opportunity to deny a transfer request in the "best interests" of the student-athlete, as the NCAA keeps insisting is its primary concern, or the best interests of the institution that holds his or her fate in its grasp? |
|
BAD LINK!
I get an error message when I click on this link too, but Hoopfeed has the same link that works fine. |
So where's that link? Would you mind posting it please?
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 67096
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/01/14 5:42 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
Romero case should lead to reform
http://msn.foxsports.com/kansas-city/story/k-state-s-romero-case-should-
inspire-ncaa-reform-of-transfer-rules-042914
| Quote: |
| Is the opportunity to deny a transfer request in the "best interests" of the student-athlete, as the NCAA keeps insisting is its primary concern, or the best interests of the institution that holds his or her fate in its grasp? |
|
BAD LINK! |
I think it is fixed now
_________________
I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
|
|
FS02
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 9699
Location: Husky (west coast) Country
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/01/14 6:06 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
Romero case should lead to reform
http://msn.foxsports.com/kansas-city/story/k-state-s-romero-case-should-
inspire-ncaa-reform-of-transfer-rules-042914
| Quote: |
| Is the opportunity to deny a transfer request in the "best interests" of the student-athlete, as the NCAA keeps insisting is its primary concern, or the best interests of the institution that holds his or her fate in its grasp? |
|
BAD LINK! |
I think it is fixed now |
Yes if you go up to the original post. Before that, I just copied the whole text of the link into my browser and it worked. That's always something to try if someone's link seems broken.
_________________
@dtmears2
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/02/14 9:21 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Glenn, from following this for a long time in football, where there obviously are many many more transfers, my impression is that permission to contact is almost always granted, but it almost always has strings, like not in conference and not to teams on the upcoming schedule, and frequently not to a school where the head coach or an assistant who recruited the player has moved (because of assumed tampering in all likelihood).
I don't understand the assumption by some that the school is doing something wrong by imposing restrictions, at least under the current rules. The default under the rules is no contact. That's why permission must affirmatively be granted. If the rule was that anyone could transfer anywhere anytime, there wouldn't be any need for any permission. Whether the rule should be changed is a different discussion and is not school-specific. But right now, free agency is not the rule.
But I believe the instances in which a player gets no permission to contact any other school are nearly non-existant, and when really broad restrictions are imposed by a coach they are almost always cut back or eliminated by the non-athletic department review panel required by the rules. The "have to pay your own way for a year" situation almost never arises unless a player is dead set on attending one particular school that the current school won't budge on, and usually not even then in the end.
And particularly in men's basketball the number of "hardship" waivers from even the one year sit-out rule are becoming commonplace and routine so that players are transferring and playing immedietly, and what constitutes "hardship" is being stretched beyond any logic. And the "graduate school" transfer rule is also being used far more commonly than was ever the intent of the rule.
My impression is that transfers are far more unrestricted in WBB than in football. Maybe that is what leads to this assumption here that the school is somehow "evil" if it does not allow unfettered transfer. And we don't know what has happened behind the scenes at KSt to cause that stance. That's not to say that denying permission to contact anywhere is remotely reasonable (it's not), and I expect the coach will be overruled by others in the school before this is over.
|
|
greatgator
Joined: 20 Dec 2012
Posts: 143
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/02/14 9:21 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| As I've discussed with Beknighted somewhere on this board, I don't think we know whether Diamond DeShields has been granted, denied or even requested a transfer release yet. |
As discussed in another thread, UNC Coach Hatchell indicated last night that Diamond DeShields has been granted an unconditional release.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7863
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 05/02/14 12:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Currie may be acting like an ass, but in the end it's not his decision. This is how the NCAA itself describes the process in the "NCAA Transfer Guide - 2013-14":
"Written permission-to-contact
Generally, if you are enrolled as a full-time student at an NCAA or National Association of Intercollegiate Athletics (NAIA) four-year school and you want to transfer to a different NCAA school to play, your current schools athletics director must give written permission-to-contact to the new coach or member of the athletics staff before you or your parents can talk with one of them. That is called having a permission-to-contact letter. You may write to any NCAA school saying that you are interested in transferring, but the new coach must not discuss transfer opportunities with you unless he or she has received written permission-to-contact from your current school.
If your current school does not give you written permission-to-contact, another school cannot contact you and encourage you to transfer. This does not preclude you from transferring; however, if the new school is in Division I or II, you cannot receive an athletics scholarship until you have attended the new school for one academic year.
Also, if your current school officials deny your request to permit another institution to contact you about transferring, they must tell you in writing that you have a right to appeal the decision. In that instance, a panel of individuals from your current school who are not involved in athletics will conduct a hearing to decide the issue."
Most of the time these panels from outside the athletic departments eliminate or scale back outlandish restrictions that the athletic department is trying to impose.
Has Romero received or even requested that review? Or is she just choosing to try to get what she wants by going to the press with a publicity campaign?
|
|
|
|
