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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 04/12/07 8:03 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
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| It seems to me, being called a "ho" was just as offensive as being called "nappy headed" |
I thought "ho" was more offensive than being called nappy headed. |
as did I, but I'm female, and I'm white...
perhaps I would be more offended with "nappy headed" If I was black. I wouldn't understand that feeling, so I'm not going to pretend like what Imus said is not a big deal, because the 10 people whom were spoken against, were offended, and were hurt. And I'm proud that the majority of the country is backing them. As we should.
As stated, I don't know if firing Imus was fair, but it's the radio stations decision, and yes there's the amendment however, enough is enough..
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/12/07 8:24 pm ::: |
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One of the newspaper articles tonight said "'Nappy' is a word so offensive that it has largely disappeared from American usage."
That seems like a bit of an overstatement.
But then I sorta liked that Nappy Roots song.
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LTF1
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 04/12/07 8:31 pm ::: |
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pilight:"I thought "ho" was more offensive than being called nappy headed."
This would be funny if people weren't being "scarred for life"  and losing their jobs over it. As I posted some time ago, I never heard the term "nappy" until I moved to Louisiana in 1988. Since then I have heard both whites and blacks use it and have had at least one black person describe to me another black person with the term "nappy hair". Me, I wouldn't touch the term because I wasn't sure.
And that is the problem, how are people to know? You have folks quite reasonably thinking "ho" is more offensive than "nappy headed". Why wouldn't they? Most people don't go around thinking "Gee what words do I need to avoid today because I might accidentally offend some one"
I think the NAACP or somebody should publish a list of words and contexts and who can and cannot use them. I remember when Dem Sen Robt Byrd said their were "white 'Ns' word". No meltdown then? Why? Maybe because he is a big spending Democratic senator? Sharpton and Jackson have gotten away with anti-Semitic remarks for years--apparently no big deal as far as their constituents are concerned. Hmmm. |
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pilight
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/12/07 8:35 pm ::: |
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| LTF1 wrote: |
| Maybe because he is a big spending Democratic senator? |
Imus was (mostly) a democrat too.
I spent a little while this evening checking the conservative blogs to see what they're saying. Most don't care too much because they all hated Imus anyway.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 04/12/07 8:35 pm ::: |
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And I'm proud that the majority of the country is backing them. As we should.
i wonder if this is true.
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LTF1
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 04/12/07 8:40 pm ::: |
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pilight:"I know I've heard that word in a not disparaging sense, and not that long ago."
I have just looked up "nappy" in my copy of American Slang (which has an endorsement by the ed. of the OED) by Robt L. Chapman (Perennial, 1987).
Unlike the other N word which it notes as very offensive, "nappy" is not noted as being offensive. The definition is simply "adj. black Kinky-haired."
Now that was 20 yrs ago and someone may have changed the rules, but really, somebody ought to send e-mails out or something when words become offensive. |
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UTexRulz23
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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womens_hoops
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LTF1
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 04/12/07 8:53 pm ::: |
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utexrules:"The fact of the matter is that meaning lies not in words, but in people. Words are highly ambiguous...at least that's what all of my communication professors say!!! "
(Postmodern influence obviously) And people aren't?  |
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mercfan3
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LTF1
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| Posted: 04/12/07 9:12 pm ::: |
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I've just looked up "ho" in the aforementioned dictionary of American Slang. It doesn't note it as an offensive term. The definition is "A prostitute or other disreputable woman" from "Southern or black pronunciation of whore." It quotes usage by the NY Times:"like many sisters of the streets she calls them 'ho's'"
Again, that is 1987. What's changed things since to make "nappy headed" and "ho" so offensive? Rap/hip-hop maybe? |
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pilight
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| Posted: 04/12/07 9:26 pm ::: |
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| ho = whore, which has always been a derogatory, AFAIK.
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I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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womens_hoops
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pilight
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| Posted: 04/12/07 9:43 pm ::: |
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I guess there are aspects (both connotative and denotative) that I wasn't getting. It still seems to me that "ho" is worse.
_________________
I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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luvDhoops
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: 04/12/07 10:12 pm ::: |
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Let me break down "nappy" for you guys because you seem to be struggling.
The term was used to disparage our naturally kinky hair. It was used to be an insulting description of the texture of our hair. Now, Timber didn't want to dive into this, but I'll scratch it a little.
We were taught from the moment we arrived here, that everything that was different about us was unattractive and ugly, our hair being just one thing. So fast forward about 400 years or so and you still have this inbred belief by many in our own community that the natural state of our hair is unattractive. You of course have those who despite what's been passed along from generation to generation about their "undesirable" features and despite what's blasted across the tv daily about what's attractive, held fast to their belief that they were beautiful.
You also have the whole "Black Power" movement that sprung from the civil rights struggle, where everyone was like "yeah, we're not assimilating". They got rid of "conks" and relaxers and rocked their afros and their hair in its natural form with pride.
More recently you have black people, as we have a long history of doing or attempting to do with the remnants of slavery, take the word "nappy" and its original connotation and flip into something positive.
So, that's why you have this entire division within the black community as to how to take the term "nappy". You have some people who still believe that the state of their hair in its natural form is unattractive and would probably curse you out if you even suggested that their hair was "nappy"; not with all the time they spent at the salon and applying relaxers for it not to be. Then you have people like me. I haven't put a relaxer in my hair in over two years. I wear it in different styles: just loose, braided or straightened. The moment someone says "nappy" to me, I just go "what's wrong with that?"
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MNfan22
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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womens_hoops
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| Posted: 04/12/07 10:49 pm ::: |
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| luvDhoops wrote: |
| Let me break down "nappy" for you guys because you seem to be struggling. |
thanks. I knew the general history... just didn't know that the word "nappy" had a place in it. I had only heard it used recently, in hip hop songs, where it never seemed derogatory.
The word itself is apparently fairly recent, incidentally. Coined by Alan Lomax in Mister Jelly Roll, 1950.
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LTF1
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 04/12/07 10:52 pm ::: |
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pilight:"ho = whore, which has always been a derogatory, AFAIK."
Derogatory, yes, but racist? Apparently not in 1987 and certainly not if it is a common southern pronunciation of the word as the slang dictionary indicated.
luvdhoops:"So, that's why you have this entire division within the black community as to how to take the term "nappy".
And most non-African Americans are supposed to know this? So if a white person uses the term to one black person it might be ok, but if to another, look out? Or wait, I get it, nobody but African Americans can use this term!
Well, somebody better inform English dictionaries:
American Heritage On-line dictionary: "nappy: 1. having a nap; fuzzy 2. Kinky frizzy"
Merriam-Webster On-line: (Fourth Definition--others didn't apply) "Kinky.
Etymology (from "nap"): Middle English noppe, from Middle Dutch, flock of wool, nap: a hairy or downy surface (as on a fabric)"
In neither dictionary was "nappy" noted as "disparaging" or "offensive" while the other "N" word was noted as such in both.
Nor nothing in either of them about who could use the word "nappy" appropriately or not. Someone call Sharpton. Boycott Webster's! |
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womens_hoops
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/12/07 11:01 pm ::: |
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| LTF1 wrote: |
pilight:"ho = whore, which has always been a derogatory, AFAIK."
Derogatory, yes, but racist? Apparently not in 1987 and certainly not if it is a common southern pronunciation of the word as the slang dictionary indicated. |
I don't know that it is racist, it would likely offend most any woman you chose to apply it to. You originally said "I've just looked up "ho" in the aforementioned dictionary of American Slang. It doesn't note it as an offensive term." I thought it was odd that it would not be tagged as offensive. Perhaps the dictionary as trying to indicate that it's no more offensive than "whore", which is debatable but probably accurate.
_________________
I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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luvDhoops
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 8229
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| Posted: 04/12/07 11:02 pm ::: |
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| LTF1 wrote: |
pilight:"ho = whore, which has always been a derogatory, AFAIK."
Derogatory, yes, but racist? Apparently not in 1987 and certainly not if it is a common southern pronunciation of the word as the slang dictionary indicated.
luvdhoops:"So, that's why you have this entire division within the black community as to how to take the term "nappy".
And most non-African Americans are supposed to know this? So if a white person uses the term to one black person it might be ok, but if to another, look out? Or wait, I get it, nobody but African Americans can use this term!
Well, somebody better inform English dictionaries:
American Heritage On-line dictionary: "nappy: 1. having a nap; fuzzy 2. Kinky frizzy"
Merriam-Webster On-line: (Fourth Definition--others didn't apply) "Kinky.
Etymology (from "nap"): Middle English noppe, from Middle Dutch, flock of wool, nap: a hairy or downy surface (as on a fabric)"
In neither dictionary was "nappy" noted as "disparaging" or "offensive" while the other "N" word was noted as such in both.
Nor nothing in either of them about who could use the word "nappy" appropriately or not. Someone call Sharpton. Boycott Webster's! |
Where did you once in ANY thread read where I stated white people should know this? Find that post for me and provide a link please, because I really want to read it.
And actually, let's piggyback off of that for a moment. Why would any intelligent person go on national airwaves and casually use a word they didn't "know" the history of just because they heard someone else use it? That's stupid. So, your point would be?
Or, perhaps because Mr. Imus couldn't find anything in any conventional dictionaries, perhaps he should have taken some initiative to speak to a black person to get an understanding of what he was about to say. Hmmm.
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womens_hoops
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/12/07 11:08 pm ::: |
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| luvDhoops wrote: |
| Why would any intelligent person go on national airwaves and casually use a word they didn't "know" the history of just because they heard someone else use it? That's stupid. |
Before 2 hours ago, I didn't even know there was a history to know about. It wouldn't have occurred to me to research the history any more than it occurs to me to research the history of any other word.
Like just about every other word in my vocabulary, I learned the meaning from hearing people use it. And I used it the same way, trying to replicate the usage I'd heard.
(As an aside... I had it wrong on another level as well. I thought "nappy" just meant like bed head, unwashed, unkempt, flat. I wouldn't have tagged it as meaning "fuzzy and kinky.")
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/12/07 11:17 pm ::: |
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| womens_hoops wrote: |
| (As an aside... I had it wrong on another level as well. I thought "nappy" just meant like bed head, unwashed, unkempt, flat. I wouldn't have tagged it as meaning "fuzzy and kinky.") |
Well, I was ahead of you on that at least. I knew it meant fuzzy and kinky.
_________________
I'm sick and tired of the stories that you always tell
Shakespeare couldn't tell a story that well
See, you're the largest liar that was ever created
You and Pinocchio are probably related
Full of criss-crossed fits, you lie all the time
Your tongue should be embarrassed, you're a threat to mankind
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LTF1
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 2252
Location: Louisiana
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| Posted: 04/12/07 11:22 pm ::: |
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(From the link)On-line Etymology Dictionary:""downy," 1499, from nap (n.). Meaning "fuzzy, kinky," used in colloquial OR derogatory ref. to the hair of black people, is from 1950."
Below that an ad for: "Carol's Daughter-Hair. The trusted beauty brand for all ethnicities. Sign up for catalog."
http://www.carolsdaughter.com/departments.asp?dept=1002&gclid=CM3s1cnsvosCFQx1VAod-lwz2Q
Sort of make luvdhoop's earlier point.
Last edited by LTF1 on 04/12/07 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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