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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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 Posted: 03/11/15 11:56 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal. |
Regulate was probably the wrong word, but I meant make it possible for more schools to have those positions, a lot of schools don't because of budgets. Obviously it would be a difficult process, but it could be a possibility. I think a lot coaches would be willing to hire their own former players or other former players they coached against or even recruited, if they could bring them in at a lower level position so they could learn as opposed to bringing them in as an assistant coach their first year out of college. |
Agree. Do the rules allow one or two graduate assistant coaches in basketball the way they do in football, or do they count against the four coach max? I think allowing a couple extra grad asst coaches would be a great way to get more former players a start in coaching. They should change the rules to allow this if they don't already. |
I don't know if there is a max for grad assistants, but they don't count toward one of the 4 coaches, and they do have a lot of rules they have to follow in terms of contact, recruiting, coaching, film, etc. Unless the conference has specific rules (which I assume is possible) it is up to each school whether they want to approve a grad assistant, as well as video coordinator, director of operations, etc.. The problem is most schools don't have it in their budget to pay for a grad assistant, whether it's a monthly stipend or tuition, or both, as I referenced in my first post. There are teams that currently have grad assistants, but not all are paid or compensated well, they are volunteers or paid minimally, similar to a manager, which is good for some people, but not everyone can afford to do so. There are some schools that are lucky that can pay for tuition and/or give monthly stipends for grad assistants, how every not every team is that lucky.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 67165
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| Posted: 03/12/15 7:05 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| The NCAA should adopt a version of the NFL's Rooney Rule for women. |
They could do that. I'm not sure that many people think the Rooney Rule has accomplished much other than producing some courtesy interviews. |
The numbers suggest it has had some impact. The percentage of minority head coaches is double what it was before the rule was put in place.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 03/12/15 8:50 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| The NCAA should adopt a version of the NFL's Rooney Rule for women. |
They could do that. I'm not sure that many people think the Rooney Rule has accomplished much other than producing some courtesy interviews. |
The numbers suggest it has had some impact. The percentage of minority head coaches is double what it was before the rule was put in place. |
The numbers are too small to be statistically significant to draw that conclusion. There has been a bunch written and there are a lot of varying opinions. There was an initial surge in minority hiring right after the rule was adopted in 2003. But was that due to the rule or to the threatened lawsuits that led to the rule in the first place? Since that peak the numbers have fallen. After ten years of the rule being in effect, Forbes wrote this in 2013 - "With just a week to go before the Baltimore Ravens and the San Francisco 49ers play in the 47th Super Bowl, all of the open coaching and general manager positions in the NFL have been filled. This is not a surprise. For all but two NFL teams, next season has already begun. What is a surprise is how the hiring of the coaches and general managers went down. Eight coaches landed on new teams. Seven general managers found new jobs. Not one of those fifteen jobs was filled by a minority. This was not supposed to happen."
BTW, there's been a small uptick again the last two years since the 2013 debacle. One wonders whether any of this is driven by the Rooney Rule or simply by people "growing up", by the success other minority coaches and GMs have had, by the media scrutiny that resulted from 2013's 0-15 record, and by the glacially slow changes in societal attitudes.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 03/12/15 9:51 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
If it made it to the old politically aligned fogies on the Supreme Court then it would mean that multiple judges along the way ruled it legal which is incongruous with your eye rolling cock-surety.
And yes, what do they know, as their opinions are clearly connected to what party the president who nominated them was part of.
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No actually it doesn't mean that at all. And using quotas to remedy discrimination has been illegal for over forty years, found so by many judges of varying political persuasions.
Maybe you should try educating yourself on the issue.
And nearly all, if not all, universities already have discrimination policies at least as strong as the Postal Service's. You didn't like the University of Arkansas's choice, right?
"It is the policy of the University of Arkansas to provide an educational and work environment in which thought, creativity, and growth are stimulated, and in which individuals are free to realize their full potential. The university should be a place of work and study for students, faculty, and staff, which is free of all forms of discrimination, sexual intimidation and exploitation. Therefore, it is the policy of the University of Arkansas, to prohibit discrimination and sexual harassment of its students, faculty, and staff and to make every effort to eliminate discrimination and sexual harassment in the university."
They have a whole office dedicated to it. Maybe you should complain to their "Office of Equal Opportunity and Compliance".
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9818
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| Posted: 03/12/15 10:11 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
If it made it to the old politically aligned fogies on the Supreme Court then it would mean that multiple judges along the way ruled it legal which is incongruous with your eye rolling cock-surety.
And yes, what do they know, as their opinions are clearly connected to what party the president who nominated them was part of.
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No actually it doesn't mean that at all. And using quotas to remedy discrimination has been illegal for over forty years, found so by many judges of varying political persuasions.
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Oh, can you get to the Supreme Court by losing at every court along the way?
It doesn't have to be a quota, just the same stuff the Post Office uses to say they are gonna go after diversity.
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Maybe you should try educating yourself on the issue.
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Right back at you. I read what the Post Office wrote and I encourage you to reread it. They don't have quotas - but they "encourage the contributions of people from different backgrounds" and their "management of diversity MUST BE REFLECTED IN RECRUITMENT, SELECTION, PROMOTION". No judge has overturned that policy because they don't give a quota, they just have a policy that you gotta hire "diversely". It sure sounds like you are gonna hear from somebody upstairs if your department only has white people or white males. And your next hire will not be a white person or white male. Although in California it appears to have gone the other way. I never see white postal workers and actually dealt over the phone with a supervisor with regard to a lost package whose Vietnamese accent was so thick I had difficulty having a conversation.
| Quote: |
And nearly all, if not all, universities already have discrimination policies at least as strong as the Postal Service's. You didn't like the University of Arkansas's choice, right?
"It is the policy of the University of Arkansas to provide an educational and work environment in which thought, creativity, and growth are stimulated, and in which individuals are free to realize their full potential. The university should be a place of work and study for students, faculty, and staff, which is free of all forms of discrimination, sexual intimidation and exploitation. Therefore, it is the policy of the University of Arkansas, to prohibit discrimination and sexual harassment of its students, faculty, and staff and to make every effort to eliminate discrimination and sexual harassment in the university."
They have a whole office dedicated to it. Maybe you should complain to their "Office of Equal Opportunity and Compliance". |
That policy doesn't ever mention hiring or diversity. I would like to see a policy from the university that has something about hiring/recruitment/selection and diversity as the post office policy I posted had. What you posted only directly addresses "how we want you to be treated AFTER you are here".
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 03/12/15 10:26 am ::: |
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I guess "free of all forms of discrimination" isn't broad enough for you. 
You know, maybe you should try reading what people actually write instead instead of ranting about strawmen of your own creation. THIS is what was said:
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal. |
As far as Arkansas, read this, which you could have found yorself in thirty seconds if you'd bothered to look. If you just want to keep ranting about the Postal Service, go ahead. I'm done doing your work for you.
http://oeoc.uark.edu/eeo-aap/laws-regulations.php
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 03/12/15 10:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 67165
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| Posted: 03/12/15 10:34 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| The NCAA should adopt a version of the NFL's Rooney Rule for women. |
They could do that. I'm not sure that many people think the Rooney Rule has accomplished much other than producing some courtesy interviews. |
The numbers suggest it has had some impact. The percentage of minority head coaches is double what it was before the rule was put in place. |
The numbers are too small to be statistically significant to draw that conclusion. There has been a bunch written and there are a lot of varying opinions. |
Minority coaching numbers have been consistently higher since the rule has been in place than they were before. I agree it's a small data set, but it seems too persistent to just be coincidence.
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Most people hate poetry
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 03/12/15 10:51 am ::: |
Reply |
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| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| The NCAA should adopt a version of the NFL's Rooney Rule for women. |
They could do that. I'm not sure that many people think the Rooney Rule has accomplished much other than producing some courtesy interviews. |
The numbers suggest it has had some impact. The percentage of minority head coaches is double what it was before the rule was put in place. |
The numbers are too small to be statistically significant to draw that conclusion. There has been a bunch written and there are a lot of varying opinions. |
Minority coaching numbers have been consistently higher since the rule has been in place than they were before. I agree it's a small data set, but it seems too persistent to just be coincidence. |
Actually not consistant, as 2013 demonstrated. But the bigger question is causation. Did the Rooney Rule matter, or was it the lawsuits, media attention and public pressure that led to the Rooney Rule that also drove the uptick in minority hiring. All the Rooney Rule does is require a single minority interview. I tend to think of it more as window dressing by the NFL, an organization that has proven itself adept at glossing over more than one problem.
I don't object to the rule at all, but it doesn't make someone who wants to discriminate change his behavior. I do object to organizations like the NFL waving around things like this as "proof" they've actually changed as if we're all supposed to applaud them for being so magnanimous.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9818
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| Posted: 03/12/15 11:09 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I guess "free of all forms of discrimination" isn't broad enough for you.
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You guess right. I was looking for hiring/selection/recruitment and diversity. Something that says (or implies is maybe a better word) - without giving a quota - we are gonna hire lots of non-whites and/or females. It is one thing to say that you are gonna give everyone an equal chance, but it is another to say you are gonna hire diversely - it must happen.
| Quote: |
You know, maybe you should try reading what people actually write instead instead of ranting about strawmen of your own creation. THIS is what was said:
[quote="ArtBest23"]
| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal. |
I said this in the interim. "And it doesn't have to be a regulation - just a policy - like the Post Office." I don't see how it can be a strawman, since I am not raising it as your argument. It is my suggestion. You could say though, that I am "changing the subject".
| Quote: |
As far as Arkansas, read this, which you could have found yorself in thirty seconds if you'd bothered to look. If you just want to keep ranting about the Postal Service, go ahead. I'm done doing your work for you.
http://oeoc.uark.edu/eeo-aap/laws-regulations.php |
That doesn't look like policies of The University of Arkansas. It's just a page on their web site showing federal laws. They title it:
"FEDERAL LAWS ON EMPLOYMENT DISCRIMINATION".
Last edited by tfan on 03/12/15 11:50 am; edited 3 times in total |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 67165
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 03/12/15 11:19 am ::: |
Reply |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| The NCAA should adopt a version of the NFL's Rooney Rule for women. |
They could do that. I'm not sure that many people think the Rooney Rule has accomplished much other than producing some courtesy interviews. |
The numbers suggest it has had some impact. The percentage of minority head coaches is double what it was before the rule was put in place. |
The numbers are too small to be statistically significant to draw that conclusion. There has been a bunch written and there are a lot of varying opinions. |
Minority coaching numbers have been consistently higher since the rule has been in place than they were before. I agree it's a small data set, but it seems too persistent to just be coincidence. |
Actually not consistant, as 2013 demonstrated. But the bigger question is causation. Did the Rooney Rule matter, or was it the lawsuits, media attention and public pressure that led to the Rooney Rule that also drove the uptick in minority hiring. All the Rooney Rule does is require a single minority interview. I tend to think of it more as window dressing by the NFL, an organization that has proven itself adept at glossing over more than one problem.
I don't object to the rule at all, but it doesn't make someone who wants to discriminate change his behavior. I do object to organizations like the NFL waving around things like this as "proof" they've actually changed as if we're all supposed to applaud them for being so magnanimous. |
Even in 2013 there were more minority coaches than there ever were before the Rooney Rule. It's just that none of them were new hires that year.
If someone wants to discriminate, this rule won't make a difference. I believe that few Athletic Directors want to discriminate, at least consciously. Putting a more diverse group of candidates in front of them can only help.
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The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 03/12/15 11:35 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
Even in 2013 there were more minority coaches than there ever were before the Rooney Rule. It's just that none of them were new hires that year.
If someone wants to discriminate, this rule won't make a difference. I believe that few Athletic Directors want to discriminate, at least consciously. Putting a more diverse group of candidates in front of them can only help. |
There were, though, fewer than in 2006.
As I said, I have no problem with it. It might even be valuable symbolism. It's certainly not a panacea. And there's a risk that people say "see, we fixed it, now leave us alone" and then turn away, which I think is essentially what happened in the NFL.
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