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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8254
Location: Heisenberg
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 Posted: 04/29/14 3:57 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| TheLoneGranger wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| TheLoneGranger wrote: |
| Yea verily! The three pointer adds to the game's strategy. If we were talking men's B-ball I would advocate dunks being valued as one point due to the lack of skill required. |
The dunk is such a high-percentage shot, though, and is difficult to set up, so it's not that bad.
The main thing about the dunk isn't the difficulty of the shot itself, but rather the action that set up the opportunity, which is usually either a steal or a nice offensive sequence that gets a big man open right next to the rim.
I think one reason women do not do as well around the basket as men is that women can't dunk, and the percentage on layups is significantly lower than on dunks. |
Women do have significant difficulty with layups. |
"Women" don't have problems with layups. Players who don't practice layups, practice the wrong things, never learned or don't work on fundamentals, try to be too fancy, think they can rely on raw "athleticism" to be succesful, or who just aren't that good, struggle with layups. I'd like to hear any explanation whatsoever for the notion that there is some sex based distinction relative to whether a player can or cannot make a layup. |
Simple: The further you are from the rim, the harder any shot is.
Women are generally six inches shorter, across a roster, so that puts them six inches further away.
Women don't jump as well as men, so that puts them even further away when they release the ball.
Women aren't as strong as men in the upper body, and thus contact is more liable to throw off their shot than with a man. I don't think officials protect the shooter close to the basket enough in the women's game.
And finally, I think the lighter women's ball is more likely to bounce away than the men's ball, though I know people disagree.
It's not women don't have the coordination men do, but they are smaller, they don't jump as well, and they don't handle contact as well.
That means they are further from the basket when they release the ball, and less likely to power through contact. |
I've heard Geno Auriemma make exactly the same arguments as Clay, including the assertion that the women's smaller ball more prone to bouncing out of the rim. Women of the same height as men may also have smaller hands. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 04/29/14 4:29 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| TheLoneGranger wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| TheLoneGranger wrote: |
| Yea verily! The three pointer adds to the game's strategy. If we were talking men's B-ball I would advocate dunks being valued as one point due to the lack of skill required. |
The dunk is such a high-percentage shot, though, and is difficult to set up, so it's not that bad.
The main thing about the dunk isn't the difficulty of the shot itself, but rather the action that set up the opportunity, which is usually either a steal or a nice offensive sequence that gets a big man open right next to the rim.
I think one reason women do not do as well around the basket as men is that women can't dunk, and the percentage on layups is significantly lower than on dunks. |
Women do have significant difficulty with layups. |
"Women" don't have problems with layups. Players who don't practice layups, practice the wrong things, never learned or don't work on fundamentals, try to be too fancy, think they can rely on raw "athleticism" to be succesful, or who just aren't that good, struggle with layups. I'd like to hear any explanation whatsoever for the notion that there is some sex based distinction relative to whether a player can or cannot make a layup. |
Simple: The further you are from the rim, the harder any shot is.
Women are generally six inches shorter, across a roster, so that puts them six inches further away.
Women don't jump as well as men, so that puts them even further away when they release the ball.
Women aren't as strong as men in the upper body, and thus contact is more liable to throw off their shot than with a man. I don't think officials protect the shooter close to the basket enough in the women's game.
And finally, I think the lighter women's ball is more likely to bounce away than the men's ball, though I know people disagree.
It's not women don't have the coordination men do, but they are smaller, they don't jump as well, and they don't handle contact as well.
That means they are further from the basket when they release the ball, and less likely to power through contact. |
I've heard Geno Auriemma make exactly the same arguments as Clay, including the assertion that the women's smaller ball more prone to bouncing out of the rim. Women of the same height as men may also have smaller hands. |
That may all be well and true with respect to put backs under the rim in traffic. But I'm not buying it with respect to uncontested layups, which are routinely missed and for which there is no excuse. There are plenty of 5'8" 16 year old boys and girls who can make layups. And jumping ability has zero to do with it because no one is jumping to make those shots. We're not talking Jewell Loyd alley oops here. Just normal, routine, layup drill type, contact-free layups.
Don't pretend that the only men who can make layups are Kevin Durant sized.
Routinely missing layups is like shooting 50% on free throws. It only happens because players haven't worked on it enough.
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TheLoneGranger
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 87
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| Posted: 04/29/14 11:27 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| TheLoneGranger wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| TheLoneGranger wrote: |
| Yea verily! The three pointer adds to the game's strategy. If we were talking men's B-ball I would advocate dunks being valued as one point due to the lack of skill required. |
The dunk is such a high-percentage shot, though, and is difficult to set up, so it's not that bad.
The main thing about the dunk isn't the difficulty of the shot itself, but rather the action that set up the opportunity, which is usually either a steal or a nice offensive sequence that gets a big man open right next to the rim.
I think one reason women do not do as well around the basket as men is that women can't dunk, and the percentage on layups is significantly lower than on dunks. |
Women do have significant difficulty with layups. |
"Women" don't have problems with layups. Players who don't practice layups, practice the wrong things, never learned or don't work on fundamentals, try to be too fancy, think they can rely on raw "athleticism" to be succesful, or who just aren't that good, struggle with layups. I'd like to hear any explanation whatsoever for the notion that there is some sex based distinction relative to whether a player can or cannot make a layup. |
Simple: The further you are from the rim, the harder any shot is.
Women are generally six inches shorter, across a roster, so that puts them six inches further away.
Women don't jump as well as men, so that puts them even further away when they release the ball.
Women aren't as strong as men in the upper body, and thus contact is more liable to throw off their shot than with a man. I don't think officials protect the shooter close to the basket enough in the women's game.
And finally, I think the lighter women's ball is more likely to bounce away than the men's ball, though I know people disagree.
It's not women don't have the coordination men do, but they are smaller, they don't jump as well, and they don't handle contact as well.
That means they are further from the basket when they release the ball, and less likely to power through contact. |
I've heard Geno Auriemma make exactly the same arguments as Clay, including the assertion that the women's smaller ball more prone to bouncing out of the rim. Women of the same height as men may also have smaller hands. |
I have heard Geno say women players cannot make layups and male players cannot make free throws (unless they play at UCONN for Ollie.  ) Too bad there are no stats regarding layup percentage. I do believe female players miss layups or bunnies whatever you call them much more than men. Yeah, they are shorter, however, I played in high school, college, and industrial leagues with many guys any where from 5'6" to 5'10" and they never had the problems women players have making bunnies. Even the taller women 6'+ miss short easy shots. It may be they rush their shots, they certainly seem to be oblivious to the white painted square just above the basket, and men on the whole are far more coordinated than women. Women may not be taught properly but many of them insist on banking their shots very high on the backboard very low % success. Uncontested layups are made reasonably well by women. Contested layups result in a much lower percentage (opinion of course). Whether the contested layup is in transition, driving the key, or a Big trying to put back a rebound.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11193
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| Posted: 04/30/14 9:39 am ::: |
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What most would call a layup always involves jumping. For a right-handed layup, you plant and push with your left leg ... the higher you jump (and the taller you are), the closer you are to the rim when you release the ball.
When I work on layups (and I can go for 45 minutes easy), one of the things I emphasize is releasing the ball as close to the rim as possible, and it's amazing how many girls have never even considered that.
And a lot of girls got in the habit of shooting layups overhand when they were young, and that's a lower-percentage technique. I spend a lot of time trying to break that habit as well.
I do think Art's point about coaching does come into play, though. I don't think many coaches spend much time on layups, but it's less critical on the boys' side, for reasons I've mentioned, so not too many sessions at clinics or team camps focus on layups or close-in shots.
I would argue that both boys' and girls' coaches spend the same amount of time teaching layups (not enough), but it's more of a factor for girls.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 04/30/14 9:56 am ::: |
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| Btw, thanks for all that great footage. I'm old enough to remember when female basketball players had assess and legs.
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 2539
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| Posted: 04/30/14 10:56 am ::: Hmmm |
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| Still waiting for Glenn's response to Clays comments!!
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