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ucdt3
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bullsky
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 Posted: 04/14/07 11:15 am ::: |
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| Was she even on the bench most of the season? I wondered where she was...
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CalwbbFan
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| Posted: 04/14/07 11:24 am ::: |
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I'm surprised there's not more of this....not privy to her situation, but how can all these top players go to schools like Tenn and UConn and warm the bench.....especially when many of them could be IMPACT players for other growing programs??
Here's an interesting article which addresses some of these issues of too much talented concentrated on too few teams:
http://fullcourt.scout.com/2/635260.html
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ucdt3
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| Posted: 04/14/07 11:25 am ::: |
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| Orange][Krush wrote: |
| Was she even on the bench most of the season? I wondered where she was... |
I wondered to...but the article says she left in the Middle of January...where was i...didn't even notice until the end of the season...and by then i didn't care
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bullsky
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| Posted: 04/14/07 11:29 am ::: |
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| Any guesses on where she'll end up? She's a native of Virginia...
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ucdt3
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| Posted: 04/14/07 11:32 am ::: |
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| CalwbbFan wrote: |
I'm surprised there's not more of this....not privy to her situation, but how can all these top players go to schools like Tenn and UConn and warm the bench.....especially when many of them could be IMPACT players for other growing programs??
Here's an interesting article which addresses some of these issues of too much talented concentrated on too few teams:
http://fullcourt.scout.com/2/635260.html |
That's a pointless article...b/c almost ALL of the TOP TEAMS don't even have 13 players on their roster nor will have 13 next year...so the point of his article is useless...for example next year UConn (they only had 12 this year after the loss of Phillips) will have 14 on scholarship only b/c Geno is giving our walk-on a scholarship again this season...the TOP teams would still get the players they want and always get or another TOP team would get them with the 13 scholly rule...Clay's idea of the lossing almost 675 (337 D1 schools times 2 schollies) scholarships just to "Spread the wealth" isn't very thought out in my opinion...all it does is suggest parity----parity which will form on its own when it is ready
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ucdt3
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| Posted: 04/14/07 11:35 am ::: |
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| Orange][Krush wrote: |
| Any guesses on where she'll end up? She's a native of Virginia... |
If she stays close to home then obviously Virginia Tech or Virginia...but I wouldn't rule out the states of West Virginia or North Carolina...so maybe West Virginia, NC State, Georgetown...really your guess is as good as mine
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ucdt3
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bullsky
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| Posted: 04/14/07 11:49 am ::: |
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| West Virginia is a program on the rise. Wouldn't be shocked to see her go there.
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aurabass
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/14/07 12:19 pm ::: |
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| ucdt3 wrote: |
| CalwbbFan wrote: |
I'm surprised there's not more of this....not privy to her situation, but how can all these top players go to schools like Tenn and UConn and warm the bench.....especially when many of them could be IMPACT players for other growing programs??
Here's an interesting article which addresses some of these issues of too much talented concentrated on too few teams:
http://fullcourt.scout.com/2/635260.html |
That's a pointless article...b/c almost ALL of the TOP TEAMS don't even have 13 players on their roster nor will have 13 next year...so the point of his article is useless...for example next year UConn (they only had 12 this year after the loss of Phillips) will have 14 on scholarship only b/c Geno is giving our walk-on a scholarship again this season...the TOP teams would still get the players they want and always get or another TOP team would get them with the 13 scholly rule...Clay's idea of the lossing almost 675 (337 D1 schools times 2 schollies) scholarships just to "Spread the wealth" isn't very thought out in my opinion...all it does is suggest parity----parity which will form on its own when it is ready |
I will copy this post I made on the SUmmiTT comparing UConn and Tennessee roster size the past several years
Just for comparison sake I looked up the number of players on the UConn rosters over the past 7 years to compare roster size with us.
2001-02 13 players on roster
25 Abrosimova, Svetlana 19-19
32 Cash, Swin.......... 35-33
03 Taurasi, Diana...... 33-14
10 Bird, Sue........... 34-34
34 Williams, Tamika.... 33-3
33 Ralph, Shea......... 30-30
15 Jones, Asjha........ 35-23
11 Schumacher, Kelly... 29-14
23 Johnson, Kennitra... 34-3
22 Battle, Ashley...... 5-0
05 Conlon, Maria....... 23-0
44 Rigby, Christine.... 25-1
20 Valley, Morgan...... 29-0
13 Czel, Marci......... 27-1
VS Tenn had 13 & Amanda Canon for 6 games
20 LAWSON, Kara....... 34-34
00 SNOW, Michelle..... 33-28
13 JACKSON, Gwen...... 28-23
43 ELY, Shyra......... 33-22
25 JACKSON, Brittany.. 32-5
21 MOORE, Loree....... 34-12
10 McDIVITT, April.... 33-16
33 ROBINSON, Ashley... 26-6
03 BUTTS, Tasha....... 34-17
04 DAVIS, LaToya...... 30-5
14 MUNOZ, Michelle.... 27-0
42 McDANIEL, Courtney. 29-0
50 PILLOW, Shalon..... 23-1
11 CANON, Amanda...... 6-1
2002-03 11 players on roster (Tennesse had 11)
2 Ashley Valley* So.
3 Diana Taurasi** Jr.
5 Maria Conlon** Jr.
12 Stacey Marron* So.
20 Morgan Valley** Jr.
21 Nicole Wolff Fr.
22 Ashley Battle*^ So.
23 Willnett Crockett
31 Jessica Moore*^ So.
33 Barbara Turner Fr.
43 Ann Strother Fr.
Both Tennessee and UConn had equal strength rosters
2003-04 13 players on roster (Tenn had 11 McDaniel 16 & Moore 17 games)
03 Taurasi, Diana...... 35-34
33 Turner, Barbara..... 35-33
43 Strother, Ann....... 35-33
31 Moore, Jessica...... 35-34
22 Battle, Ashley...... 35-1
05 Conlon, Maria....... 35-34
34 Sherwood, Liz....... 25-0
23 Crockett, Willnett.. 27-0
02 Valley, Ashley...... 26-0
21 Wolff, Nicole....... 3-0
20 Valley, Morgan...... 29-1
04 Robinson, Kiana..... 18-0
12 Marron, Stacey...... 22-0
UConn had two more players for the season when it really counted
Tennessee lost to UConn 61 to 70 with 9 players vs UConn's 11
We really missed Loree Moore in that final game.
2004 - 05 12 players on the roster (Tennessee had 11 players & Cannon/Guastalli)
43 STROTHER, Ann...... 33-33
33 TURNER, Barbara.... 29-18
24 HOUSTON, Charde.... 33-12
31 MOORE, Jessica..... 33-29
22 BATTLE, Ashley..... 33-8 7
25 THOMAS, Mel........ 29-4
23 CROCKETT, Willnett. 31-7
21 WOLFF, Nicole...... 32-22
02 VALLEY, Ashley..... 33-25
11 SWANIER, Ketia..... 31-5
13 SADIQ, Rashidat.... 26-0
12 MARRON, Stacey.....22-2
2005-06 12 players on roster ( Tenn had 10 with SWG for 9 games)
43 STROTHER, Ann...... 37-37
33 TURNER, Barbara.... 36-34
25 THOMAS, Mel........ 35-35
24 HOUSTON, Charde.... 33-4
20 MONTGOMERY, Renee.. 37-35
44 HUNTER, Brittany... 32-2
32 GREENE, Kalana..... 35-3
11 SWANIER, Ketia..... 37-1
23 CROCKETT, Willnett. 37-17
21 WOLFF, Nicole...... 30-17
02 WILLIAMS, Tahirah.. 21-0
51 KERNS, Cassie...... 21-0
2006-07 13 players on the roster ( TN had 10 including Curry)
20 MONTGOMERY, Renee.. 36-36
31 CHARLES, Tina...... 36-32
24 HOUSTON, Charde.... 36-35
32 GREENE, Kalana..... 36-36
25 THOMAS, Mel........ 36-36
44 HUNTER, Brittany... 25-0
11 SWANIER, Ketia..... 36-0
41 MCLAREN, Kaili..... 35-5
02 WILLIAMS, Tahirah.. 28-0
14 GARDLER, Meghan.... 29-0
51 KERNS, Cassie...... 25-0
13 FERNANDES, Jacquie. 25-0
22 PHILLIPS, Kristen.. 2-0
Roster size wasn't an issue in 02 or 03 vs UConn when we lost in the finals
but it was an issue in 2004 with McDaniel and Moore out for half the season.
Our 11 player roster in 2005 w/ Cannon and Guastalli was a big dis-advantage since SWG could only play 13 games
Ely, Shyra.......... 35
Zolman, Shanna...... 35
Hornbuckle, Alexis.. 35
Jackson, Brittany... 35
Fluker, Tye'sha..... 33
Anosike, Nicky...... 35
Spencer, Sidney..... 25
Moore, Loree........ 29
Redding, Dominique.. 31
Wiley-Gatewood,Sa'de 13
Dosty, Sybil........ 27
Guastalli, Aubrey... 8
Canon, Abby......... 7
In 2006 the lack of roster depth at guard when SWG defected after 9 games and Lex was injured gave us little chance to prevail vs UNC in Cleveland. Nine players is so thin when playing a schedule like ours
Our 2007 National Championship seems all the more amazing since we did it with nine players who could offer good competitive minutes.
I guess it's relevant here
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aurabass
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/14/07 12:23 pm ::: |
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To continue to break down the roster size for Tennessee with the recruiting classes
Recent recruiting classes
Gone
Red Shirt
Graduating Seniors
2001
Tamika Catchings 17 games, Semeka Randall, Ace Clement, Kyra Elzy
2002
SNOW, Michelle, McDIVITT, April, MUNOZ, Michelle, PILLOW, Shalon,
CANON, Amanda
2003
Gwen Jackson, Kara Lawson
2004
Tysha Butts, Loree Moore 17 games, LaToya Davis, Ashley Robinson;
Courtney McDaniel 16 games
2005
Shyra Ely, Brittany Jackson;
2006
Shanna Zolman, Tye'sha Fluker;
2007
Sidney Spencer & Dominic Redding;
2008
Nicky Anosiki, Alexis Hornbuckle, Candace Parker, Alex Fuller, Sade' W-G, Sybil Dosty
2009
Lindsey Moss
2010
Cait McMahan, Nicky Moats
2011
Angie Bjorklund, Vicky Baugh, Kelly Cain, Sidney Smallbone
2012
Briana Bass, Alicia Manning, Amber Gray
and hopefully Elena Delle Donne, April Sykes, Shekinna Stricklen and Glory Johnson
2005, 6, 7, 9, and 10 graduating classes = 9 players minus Moss and Moats.
That's 7 players in 5 years.
add in Shannon Bobbitt and Alberta Auguste as JC transfers for SWG and Sybil
Abby Cannon Aubrey Guastalli and Elizabeth Curry don't really count as game players
Last edited by aurabass on 04/14/07 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ZuG102
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
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| Posted: 04/14/07 3:15 pm ::: |
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| It seems like there have been quite a few players who are'nt happy there. I know playing time is a factor, but I mean c'mon, Pat Summit.
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auntie
Joined: 16 May 2006
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| Posted: 04/14/07 7:44 pm ::: |
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| ZuG102 wrote: |
| It seems like there have been quite a few players who are'nt happy there. I know playing time is a factor, but I mean c'mon, Pat Summit. |
I don't think it is just an issue of playing time. Pat is very demanding of her players in practice. I hear that some can end up in tears when she is particularly tough on them.
But I don't want to single out just Pat. Practices at UCONN can be tough as well. Liz Sherwood made reference to how after leaving UCONN and going to Vandy she then understood what Geno had wanted from her. I have also heard that Chris Dailey can be very tough on the players in practice.
So it may be that some players cannot adapt to that kind of environment and that is why they leave.
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luvDhoops
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: 04/14/07 8:10 pm ::: |
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| auntie wrote: |
| ZuG102 wrote: |
| It seems like there have been quite a few players who are'nt happy there. I know playing time is a factor, but I mean c'mon, Pat Summit. |
I don't think it is just an issue of playing time. Pat is very demanding of her players in practice. I hear that some can end up in tears when she is particularly tough on them.
But I don't want to single out just Pat. Practices at UCONN can be tough as well. Liz Sherwood made reference to how after leaving UCONN and going to Vandy she then understood what Geno had wanted from her. I have also heard that Chris Dailey can be very tough on the players in practice.
So it may be that some players cannot adapt to that kind of environment and that is why they leave. |
Bingo. I think that some players can commit too soon as was the case with SWG, without thoughtfully processing the demands of going into big time programs and traditional powerhouses like UT and UConn.
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bballfan2005
Joined: 22 Aug 2005
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| Posted: 04/14/07 10:53 pm ::: |
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| Orange][Krush wrote: |
| Any guesses on where she'll end up? She's a native of Virginia... |
James Madison. I doubt she'll end up at any of the ACC schools in her state because both VT and UVA have moved on in their recreuiting of post players. Wake, another ACC program that previously showed interest, already has too many posts. James Madison is close enough to her hometown for her to feel comfortable. Plus, she has a friend already there (at JMU) and they have a nursing program.
I don't think Moats is an example of a "star player who didn't find time at the 'big' school". She was never really a "star" to begin with. Moats played with a so-so AAU team and played for a lower-level division in VHSL. Thus, she never played with and against the "best of the best". Truth be told, Moats was an average BCS prospect whose eyes lit up when Pat made a desperation call to her two years ago. She was never projected to be any more than a slightly below average player at the high BCS level. She lacked the athleticism and skill to excel in the SEC and ACC. And this was before she injured her knee.
Not every kid is cut out to play at Tennessee or Connecticut, not even the All-Americans (see Dominique Redding and Liz Sherwood). Somehow, I believe her high school coaches failed to tell her that. They should've told Moats to be a little more realistic about her college of choice. You never want to see a kid go through what Moats has had to face this past season, so I hope she can find success at the mid-major level. James Madison would be a perfect fit for her.
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aurabass
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/15/07 9:04 am ::: |
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| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| Orange][Krush wrote: |
| Any guesses on where she'll end up? She's a native of Virginia... |
James Madison. I doubt she'll end up at any of the ACC schools in her state because both VT and UVA have moved on in their recreuiting of post players. Wake, another ACC program that previously showed interest, already has too many posts. James Madison is close enough to her hometown for her to feel comfortable. Plus, she has a friend already there (at JMU) and they have a nursing program.
I don't think Moats is an example of a "star player who didn't find time at the 'big' school". She was never really a "star" to begin with. Moats played with a so-so AAU team and played for a lower-level division in VHSL. Thus, she never played with and against the "best of the best". Truth be told, Moats was an average BCS prospect whose eyes lit up when Pat made a desperation call to her two years ago. She was never projected to be any more than a slightly below average player at the high BCS level. She lacked the athleticism and skill to excel in the SEC and ACC. And this was before she injured her knee.
Not every kid is cut out to play at Tennessee or Connecticut, not even the All-Americans (see Dominique Redding and Liz Sherwood). Somehow, I believe her high school coaches failed to tell her that. They should've told Moats to be a little more realistic about her college of choice. You never want to see a kid go through what Moats has had to face this past season, so I hope she can find success at the mid-major level. James Madison would be a perfect fit for her. |
Sidney Spencer was unranked on Blue Star. Dominique Redding was #29
Sidney ended up being a solid contributor - one of Pat's best coaching jobs. Dominique failed to reach her potential.
I think Moats was a Spencer type project that didn't pan out.
Pat seems leary of too many top recruits and the psychology of team and playing time but adding a Spencer or two helps alleviate that problem.
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aurabass
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/15/07 9:07 am ::: |
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| auntie wrote: |
| ZuG102 wrote: |
| It seems like there have been quite a few players who are'nt happy there. I know playing time is a factor, but I mean c'mon, Pat Summit. |
I don't think it is just an issue of playing time. Pat is very demanding of her players in practice. I hear that some can end up in tears when she is particularly tough on them.
But I don't want to single out just Pat. Practices at UCONN can be tough as well. Liz Sherwood made reference to how after leaving UCONN and going to Vandy she then understood what Geno had wanted from her. I have also heard that Chris Dailey can be very tough on the players in practice.
So it may be that some players cannot adapt to that kind of environment and that is why they leave. |
Dosty and Munoz seemed to be "I want to go home" situations
Moss never looked like she had the requisite speed to handle being a guard on the SEC level - I guess we'll see if she contributes at closer to home UGA.
Gatewood seems to be a head case
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Richards
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
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| Posted: 04/15/07 9:11 pm ::: Visit to watch practice, not a game |
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I think it should be a requirement (not one set in stone, but advice passed on by summer and high school coaches to prospects), that before they go off and commit to a school, they must visit and watch a full practice. That is where you get a feel for the expectations and demeanor of the coaching staff.
I'm not saying coaches are absolute trolls behind closed doors. rather, coaches treat players much differently once they get to know you, and know what motivates you. That's what makes them coaches.
I also think practice shows you the competition for your spot. Coaches will favor seniors, even when backups at the same position are similarly skilled. Say a senior is getting 30 minutes and a backup gets 10. If the prospect thinks they can come in and grab the starters minutes because the backup is only getting 10, it may have nothing to do with the backup's skill level. It may be senority. Watching a practice will show you how hard the backup is battling for playing time, and what you have to compete with coming in IF you have a desire for large amounts of early playing time.
I am really tired of hearing players get to a program and make comments such as "I couldn't believe how hard practices are" or "Coach ____ was a completely different person in practice than he/she is in public." Rather than visiting for a big game, visit and watch a full practice and know what to expect. I would even suggest trying to sneak in and watch a practice without the coaches knowing. That way, there are no masks being worn that might create a false impression of how difficult it is to play at an elite level.
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bballfan2005
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| Posted: 04/15/07 9:25 pm ::: |
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Richards, I'm pretty sure that most recruiting trips include a look-in at a real practice or two.
Moats' problem is that she and those around her didn't do their homework. They were unrealistic about her chances of contributing at Tennessee. Moats took one other trip (to Wake) besides the official to Tennessee and quickly made a decision without taking the remainder of her visits. If I'm not mistaken, a prospect is allowed to take five official visits. Why not take all five visits and then decide from there? No need to "burn bridges" because you never know when you might need those connections in the future. I would be absolutely SHOCKED if another BCS team took a chance on Moats. She's not a freak athlete and she barely has the size to play her position at the D-1 level.
She should go where she'll have the most success at this point in her career...James Madison. Brooks is a pretty good coach and the team will need someone to step in when Young graduates (though they play different positions).
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beknighted
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| Posted: 04/16/07 10:07 am ::: |
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| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| Richards, I'm pretty sure that most recruiting trips include a look-in at a real practice or two. |
I think this is true, and I'm also not sure how much difference it makes.
Star H.S. players probably see a practice and think "I can handle that" without giving it much thought. Most of them are used to being the best player on the court by a pretty wide margin, and most think they work pretty hard and are in good shape. It's a shock to a lot of players to discover the difference between game shape in H.S. and game shape at a top BCS program, and to see the difference in skill level between the average H.S. opponent and the women they have to practice against every day when they're in college. Even in AAU ball, the talent is spread out much more than what someone from Tennessee, UConn or Duke is going to see on a daily basis in practice or in conference play.
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sweets
Joined: 30 Mar 2007
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Grumps
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/16/07 8:04 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| bballfan2005 wrote: |
| Richards, I'm pretty sure that most recruiting trips include a look-in at a real practice or two. |
I think this is true, and I'm also not sure how much difference it makes.
Star H.S. players probably see a practice and think "I can handle that" without giving it much thought. Most of them are used to being the best player on the court by a pretty wide margin, and most think they work pretty hard and are in good shape. It's a shock to a lot of players to discover the difference between game shape in H.S. and game shape at a top BCS program, and to see the difference in skill level between the average H.S. opponent and the women they have to practice against every day when they're in college. Even in AAU ball, the talent is spread out much more than what someone from Tennessee, UConn or Duke is going to see on a daily basis in practice or in conference play. |
Handling practice is one thing...Handling practice while rehabbing is another...Moats tore her ACL during her HS senior season...Not sure how good a player she was before the tear but she seemed slow afterwards...She missed a lot of preseason practice due to her rehab and just never caught up...Add in homesickness and you have one unhappy player...
Grumps
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Who Dat ?????