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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1977
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005 Posts: 24484 Location: London
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Posted: 09/13/22 4:49 pm ::: |
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And then the team's analytics guys look at it and say "She made the offense three points better per 100 possessions, and the defense six points worse. Maybe don't get too excited." |
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1977
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Posted: 09/13/22 5:07 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
And then the team's analytics guys look at it and say "She made the offense three points better per 100 possessions, and the defense six points worse. Maybe don't get too excited." |
If she wins them a championship, do the metrics really matter?
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 19994
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Posted: 09/13/22 8:34 pm ::: |
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Richyyy wrote: |
And then the team's analytics guys look at it and say "She made the offense three points better per 100 possessions, and the defense six points worse. Maybe don't get too excited." |
And that’s why stats can be silly.
_________________ “Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67488 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/13/22 9:00 pm ::: |
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mercfan3 wrote: |
Richyyy wrote: |
And then the team's analytics guys look at it and say "She made the offense three points better per 100 possessions, and the defense six points worse. Maybe don't get too excited." |
And that’s why stats can be silly. |
The regular season Aces were no better than they have been the last two seasons, arguably not as good. Relative to the league, they were much better in 2020.
But the W, like the NBA, is a post-season league. This year's Aces didn't suddenly relegate their starting PG to the third guard off the bench when the playoffs started like Evil Bill did in 2020. Their star didn't lose focus in the playoffs like she did last year. Hammon has been a step up at the time when the Aces have needed it.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 09/13/22 9:23 pm ::: |
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considering they replaced Cambage with Stokes, I think what they've done is pretty impressive. Also of course the addition of Gray has been huge.
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lynxmania
Joined: 18 Feb 2011 Posts: 10697 Location: Minnesota
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Posted: 09/13/22 9:29 pm ::: |
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She's been impressive to me in a lot of areas.
Will potential NBA jobs interest her and/or will NBA take her more seriously - instead of a token interview - after this showing?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67488 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/13/22 9:45 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
considering they replaced Cambage with Stokes, I think what they've done is pretty impressive. Also of course the addition of Gray has been huge. |
Addition by subtraction. For all of Cambage's talent, she's not really known for winning bunches of championships anywhere.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3510
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Posted: 09/13/22 10:34 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
Addition by subtraction. For all of Cambage's talent, she's not really known for winning bunches of championships anywhere. |
Neither has anyone else on the Aces roster. Their championship pedigree consists of Chelsea Gray (who never played with Cambage), and... ??
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010 Posts: 8195
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Posted: 09/13/22 10:37 pm ::: |
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Well, the Aces didn't have to face a Mercury team with B.Griner. So....
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18131 Location: Queens
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Posted: 09/13/22 10:40 pm ::: |
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lynxmania wrote: |
She's been impressive to me in a lot of areas.
Will potential NBA jobs interest her and/or will NBA take her more seriously - instead of a token interview - after this showing? |
They’ll have to come up with better excuses not to hire her, that’s for sure. They still will, though. ‘cause she’s a girl and they all have cooties, don’t you know. /s
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1977
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Posted: 09/13/22 10:51 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
Addition by subtraction. For all of Cambage's talent, she's not really known for winning bunches of championships anywhere. |
Neither has anyone else on the Aces roster. Their championship pedigree consists of Chelsea Gray (who never played with Cambage), and... ?? |
Well, the entire squad is one game away from a ring and Cambage is pouting at home.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3510
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Posted: 09/13/22 10:52 pm ::: |
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johnjohnW wrote: |
Well, the entire squad is one game away from a ring and Cambage is pouting at home. |
Which proves exactly nothing.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1977
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Posted: 09/13/22 10:54 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
johnjohnW wrote: |
Well, the entire squad is one game away from a ring and Cambage is pouting at home. |
Which proves exactly nothing. |
It proves that you'll shift the goal post anytine you want to cape for Cambage.
She couldn't get it done. Looks like they're going to get it done without her. Addition by subtraction.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3510
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Posted: 09/13/22 10:58 pm ::: |
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johnjohnW wrote: |
Silky Johnson wrote: |
johnjohnW wrote: |
Well, the entire squad is one game away from a ring and Cambage is pouting at home. |
Which proves exactly nothing. |
It proves that you'll shift the goal post anytine you want to cape for Cambage.
She couldn't get it done. Looks like they're going to get it done without her. Addition by subtraction. |
I dare you to identify the "goalpost" that I "shifted."
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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wnbafan
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 784 Location: Delaware
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/14/22 11:07 am ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
johnjohnW wrote: |
Silky Johnson wrote: |
johnjohnW wrote: |
Well, the entire squad is one game away from a ring and Cambage is pouting at home. |
Which proves exactly nothing. |
It proves that you'll shift the goal post anytine you want to cape for Cambage.
She couldn't get it done. Looks like they're going to get it done without her. Addition by subtraction. |
I dare you to identify the "goalpost" that I "shifted." |
There are SO many factors that go into a team being successful one season and not successful the next--or vice versa. "Addition by subtraction" is a shallow view.
And is there any evidence that Cambage is "pouting at home"? Why do people make ugly statements like this?
I have no great feeling for or against Liz Cambage. I simply detest these kinds of attacks.
_________________ Remember Roe v. Wade. Work for and support legal abortion all over the world and full reproductive rights for everyone.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3510
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Posted: 09/14/22 11:39 am ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
There are SO many factors that go into a team being successful one season and not successful the next--or vice versa. "Addition by subtraction" is a shallow view. |
This is what I'm saying, and I've been consistent about this: there are simply too many variables to make such a statement with the confidence that people make it. Like, I can't rule out the possibility that it could be true, but there's simply no counterfactual. No, what's really going on is that people say "addition by subtraction" when it comes to Cambage, because they don't like Cambage, so they get out of bed on some, "Fuck Liz Cambage," and work their whole takes backwards from there.
There's two problems with the "addition by subtraction" dismissal: first, it conveniently disregards the teams that Cambage has played for that didn't get better after she left which, by my estimation, is all of them except one. It also overlooks how the one team that appears to have gotten better without her happens to have an All-World caliber point guard, and three Number One overall picks, one of which (at the time) was a former MVP of the league.
The other problem with the "addition by subtraction" dismissal is that, if you really believe that the Aces' success has been as simple as getting rid of Cambage, then you're basically saying that Becky Hammon's coaching hasn't mattered at all. That any coach could have done this, if they'd just gotten rid of Liz sooner. And hey, maybe Hammon could not have done what she's doing if Cambage was still on the roster, but you'll never have proof of that.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3510
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Posted: 09/14/22 11:45 am ::: |
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Bob Lamm wrote: |
And is there any evidence that Cambage is "pouting at home"? Why do people make ugly statements like this? |
You know why:
Silky Johnson wrote: |
... because they don't like Cambage, so they get out of bed on some, "Fuck Liz Cambage," and work their whole takes backwards from there. |
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
My team no longer exists, so I'll have to settle for hating yours.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010 Posts: 5065 Location: New York City
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Posted: 09/14/22 12:05 pm ::: |
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Silky Johnson wrote: |
This is what I'm saying, and I've been consistent about this: there are simply too many variables to make such a statement with the confidence that people make it. Like, I can't rule out the possibility that it could be true, but there's simply no counterfactual. No, what's really going on is that people say "addition by subtraction" when it comes to Cambage, because they don't like Cambage, so they get out of bed on some, "Fuck Liz Cambage," and work their whole takes backwards from there.
There's two problems with the "addition by subtraction" dismissal: first, it conveniently disregards the teams that Cambage has played for that didn't get better after she left which, by my estimation, is all of them except one. It also overlooks how the one team that appears to have gotten better without her happens to have an All-World caliber point guard, and three Number One overall picks, one of which (at the time) was a former MVP of the league.
The other problem with the "addition by subtraction" dismissal is that, if you really believe that the Aces' success has been as simple as getting rid of Cambage, then you're basically saying that Becky Hammon's coaching hasn't mattered at all. That any coach could have done this, if they'd just gotten rid of Liz sooner. And hey, maybe Hammon could not have done what she's doing if Cambage was still on the roster, but you'll never have proof of that. |
Well said, all of this.
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018 Posts: 1145 Location: New Jersey, USA
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014 Posts: 3510
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Posted: 09/14/22 2:27 pm ::: |
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NYSports56 wrote: |
The Twin Towers approach with Cambage and Wilson just didn't work out. For whatever reason, they never established any real chemistry and just clogged the paint for each other. Maybe Becky Hammon would have been able to solve the problem, maybe not, but I do think that Becky has done a phenomenal job of getting the most out of her players. |
Oh, don't misunderstand me: I absolutely believe that the key to the Aces becoming a championship team was in Wilson becoming the best version of herself. And I also believe that Wilson was never going to become the best version of herself playing alongside Liz... I just don't believe that those facts are an indictment of Cambage. I think that the most honest thing that can be said about Cambage as a basketball player is that she's a floor raiser, but not a ceiling raiser. She can (and has) elevated bad teams to playoff status, but she's not somebody who can elevate a playoff team to championship status.
_________________ Professional Hater. The Baron of #HateHard
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johnjohnW
Joined: 11 Aug 2020 Posts: 1977
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Posted: 09/14/22 4:36 pm ::: |
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Wow this blew up.
For starters, I don't hate Liz. I actually like her a lot and want her in the league. The league is better with her in it. She doesn't want it though, which is fine.
Of course other changes impacted the success of the Aces this year other than moving on from Cambage. I will fully admit that claiming she was pouting at home was hyperbole. I'm sure she's not. My point is the Aces are in the finals and Liz isn't in the league (mainly because of her self destructive tendencies). I wish her the best in whatever she elects to do.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 19994
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Posted: 09/14/22 7:52 pm ::: |
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Vegas’ top 4 players are having career years
Vegas runs excellent sets.
Vegas executes consistently well down the stretch of games.
Vegas adjusts to teams at half, and from game to game.
That’s coaching, not addition by subtraction.
_________________ “Anyone point out that a Donald Trump anagram is ‘Lord Dampnut’”- Colin Mochrie
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67488 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 09/14/22 8:06 pm ::: |
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mercfan3 wrote: |
Vegas’ top 4 players are having career years
Vegas runs excellent sets.
Vegas executes consistently well down the stretch of games.
Vegas adjusts to teams at half, and from game to game.
That’s coaching, not addition by subtraction. |
It's doubtful that Cambage would be having a career year. Nor would she be likely to suddenly develop the discipline to run excellent sets or execute in the clutch or make the adjustments her coach tells her to. She's 31 years old and hasn't grown or changed her game in a decade or more. I'd go a step further than Silky. It's not just that she can't elevate a playoff team to championship status, she's actually a hinderance to an otherwise championship caliber team.
_________________ The truth is like poetry
Most people hate poetry
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