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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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 Posted: 03/02/22 8:54 am ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
| If there was an offer of free charters for every team, I'm struggling to see what would motivate the league to decline it. Seems very win-win to me in terms of image and the ability to put the best product on the floor. |
There are multiple journalists reporting statements from the league that that essentially didn't happen. Like here, for example: https://twitter.com/JoePantorno/status/1498797301409751044?s=20&t=6KHSLKhOdITo09KBq4bOPA
“At no point was there a New York Liberty proposal for the WNBA Board of Governors to consider offering three-years-worth of charter flights for WNBA teams. It was agreed that the Liberty would explore opportunities regarding charter flights and present it to the Board. To date, that has not happened.”
As pilight mentioned earlier, even if it was presented as an option, we have no idea what strings might've been attached to it. But if it never was, also a pretty big non-element to remove from the story. |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 03/02/22 9:50 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Some view it as pure charity—one WNBA owner proudly proclaims the value of the WNBA team to be zero, according to multiple league sources, and thus all he spends on his team is effectively a contribution toward the greater good of women’s sports |
This has to be Herb Simon, right? |
My guess is the Chicago guy. I recall him making "supporting women's sports and women athletes" statements about why he go into the league.And he's still doing it.
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| “Somebody had to step up, and nobody was doing it. It was something I never dreamt I would do — be in sports, be in women’s sports. Having this league of powerful women, 80% of whom are women of color, primarily Black, I think is important. It’s critical it gets support and stability. It’s why I started and why I’m still doing it.” |
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undersized_post
Joined: 01 Mar 2021
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| Posted: 03/02/22 10:09 am ::: |
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ChasingRatDogmaSalade
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
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| Posted: 03/02/22 11:42 am ::: |
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WNBA History Note.
This is not the first time the Liberty have flown charter/private against league rules. The first such instance (at least the first time they were caught) came in the 1999 WNBA Playoffs.
New York was the top seed in the Eastern Conference and had to wait for the winner of the Charlotte vs. Detroit game to determine where they would travel for Game One of the Eastern Conference Finals (the playoff format was 1-2 back then).
We beat the Shock, and played the Liberty at the Charlotte Coliseum on August 27. Only reason we found out that New York flew on the Knicks private plane was my assistant at the time, Matt Yatsko, was failing in his efforts to quit smoking.
Prior to every game, during the calm before the storm, he would always head outside to have a smoke. He got to know the bus drivers because they would park in a docking bay just outside the Charlotte Coliseum media/staff entrance.
On this occasion the driver remarked about how cool it was that he picked the Liberty up by pulling the bus right on to the tarmac as they disembarked the Knicks plane.
We beat the Liberty in Game One, and who did we see boarding our commercial flight to New York for Game Two, but the New York Liberty. Many of you probably know that this is strictly forbidden by league rules as well (can't have a plane going down carrying two teams), but it was the only flight with seats remaining on it.
No clue what the fine was back then.
New York went on to beat us twice at the Garden before falling in the Finals to Houston two games to one.
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shontay33
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 03/02/22 1:35 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
Lucky to get off with a purely financial penalty IMO. Competition integrity is not something to mess with lightly.
Overall though I'd rate it as a good skirmish. The league needs more of these.
But the league also can't afford to lose a couple of teams because owners who just got done getting a CBA finalised are suddenly expected to pour in more cash.
Personally I think that charter flights offer terrible bang-for-your-buck in terms of cost vs benefit.
If you're a league with too much money then by all means go for it.
But when you're a league with a pitiful salary cap like this, it doesn't add up for me.
Work out the cost difference over a season for the 2 flight options, and ask the players if they'd rather take the charter flights or just 50% of the cost difference as salary. Pretty sure the majority would vote for the latter in an instant. But sure, until a player has done the math on that I'm cool with them taking to social media to wish for better conditions. I wish it for them as well. I don't think we're quite there yet but I'd be happy to be wrong. |
I disagree with having to cut players salaries in exchange for chartering planes. Teams can do it easily but some of these owners don’t want to. Just like you work out a sponsorship deal for other entities, the same can be done for charter airlines. Per the media, this was proposed but shut down.
We would be foolish to think that these owners couldn’t at least charter a flight for when their teams have to fly from one coast to the other!! If an owner is willing to pay for that and other things to show their appreciation to these ladies, so be it!! If they get the top free agents because of how well they treat their players so be it. That means that the other owners have to step their game up!! They should know this from owning companies.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/02/22 1:44 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
| If there was an offer of free charters for every team, I'm struggling to see what would motivate the league to decline it. Seems very win-win to me in terms of image and the ability to put the best product on the floor. |
My initial reaction would be a requirement for sponsorship, and having that sponsorship be particularly odious. My imagination fails to go further, however.
I suspect the conversation may actually have gone something like this:
Joe: "What if I could get flights comped for every team for three years?"
everyone: "Still no."
No concrete plan provided (which validates the league's interpretation) but also having the whole concept negated (validating the article's interpretation).
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/02/22 1:48 pm ::: |
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| ChasingRatDogmaSalade wrote: |
WNBA History Note.
This is not the first time the Liberty have flown charter/private against league rules. The first such instance (at least the first time they were caught) came in the 1999 WNBA Playoffs.
New York was the top seed in the Eastern Conference and had to wait for the winner of the Charlotte vs. Detroit game to determine where they would travel for Game One of the Eastern Conference Finals (the playoff format was 1-2 back then).
We beat the Shock, and played the Liberty at the Charlotte Coliseum on August 27. Only reason we found out that New York flew on the Knicks private plane was my assistant at the time, Matt Yatsko, was failing in his efforts to quit smoking.
Prior to every game, during the calm before the storm, he would always head outside to have a smoke. He got to know the bus drivers because they would park in a docking bay just outside the Charlotte Coliseum media/staff entrance.
On this occasion the driver remarked about how cool it was that he picked the Liberty up by pulling the bus right on to the tarmac as they disembarked the Knicks plane.
We beat the Liberty in Game One, and who did we see boarding our commercial flight to New York for Game Two, but the New York Liberty. Many of you probably know that this is strictly forbidden by league rules as well (can't have a plane going down carrying two teams), but it was the only flight with seats remaining on it.
No clue what the fine was back then.
New York went on to beat us twice at the Garden before falling in the Finals to Houston two games to one. |
God, I love getting inside history like this (although given how well known you are for your work with Detroit, hearing "we beat the Shock" took a minute to click).
My understanding is that Dolan, in his more give-a-fuck days, also used to circumvent the travel rules by making... arrangements... with Delta, where non-advertised but still commercial flights would magically appear between point A and point B- they'd be available to someone who happened to be looking on Orbitz or whatever at the right time going to the right place, but the intention was to get the Liberty to wherever they were going.
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Silky Johnson
Joined: 29 Sep 2014
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| Posted: 03/02/22 2:45 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| My understanding is that Dolan, in his more give-a-fuck days, also used to circumvent the travel rules by making... arrangements... with Delta, where non-advertised but still commercial flights would magically appear between point A and point B- they'd be available to someone who happened to be looking on Orbitz or whatever at the right time going to the right place, but the intention was to get the Liberty to wherever they were going. |
I have long wondered whether things like that were technically permissible (even if only by loophole), under the CBA, because if I were a WNBA owner, I would absolutely do that. In fact, I would have a lawyer on my payroll, whose full-time job would be to find me legal loopholes in the CBA, that would allow me to give the players as many perks as possible, without technically breaking the rules.
EDITED TO ADD: So, does this also mean that a Liberty fan who happened to be hipped to game, and/or extremely lucky, could accidentally stumble onto the fan experience of a lifetime? Imagine you've got tickets to the game, and you book a flight, and, because of chicanery that you didn't even know about, the only passengers on the plane are you... and the team?!
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Luuuc
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Joined: 10 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 03/04/22 3:18 am ::: |
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| Quote: |
"It would be more than $20 million a year to fund charter flights for an entire WNBA season," Engelbert said Thursday in an interview with ESPN. "So this is something that we're not going to jeopardize the financial health of the league and be irresponsible about. If we can get it funded by sponsors and supporters, great, but that's not where we are. We do not have that.
"We've asked all the major airlines. We've asked charter companies. I've been working on this since the moment I came into the league. But without sponsors stepping up, it's just not in the cards right now. If we could get it sponsored or funded in some way ... I'm all ears. I've gotten lots of calls over the past year about this since we've been back in our 12 markets. Then when people price it out, and they see it's $20 million-plus, you never hear from them again." |
WNBA commissioner Cathy Engelbert says paying for charter flights would jeopardize league's finances
https://www.espn.com/wnba/story/_/id/33416788
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 03/04/22 11:19 am ::: |
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The claim that Tsai could have gotten free charter flights for the entire league is absurd on its economic face, and has now been denied and debunked by Englebert herself.
It's no surprise to me that if Tsai was willing to violate so flagrantly a recently negotiated, legally binding CBA, that he would also be willing to engage in PR lies to try to save face.
In addition to the five illegal game flights, Tsai also payed for a pleasure charter to Napa Valley. Both Richards and Onyenwere are quoted at the beginning of the SI article that this trip was their "favorite non-basketball moment of the 2021 WNBA season," which indicates the value of such perks to players. Providing under-the-table perks that violate a contract is the economic equivalent of providing under-the-table salaries that violate contractual salary caps.
A $500,000 fine is not much of a financial deterrent to a mega-billionaire such as Joe Tsai. One can only wonder what kind of business practices are "normal" for one to make that kind of money in a communist China company like Alibaba. |
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 03/04/22 1:47 pm ::: |
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It should be noted that there is not a single direct quote from either the Tsai's or the Liberty in that article. Nor has there been any comments since the story came out. Engelbert doesn't only dispute the claim that Tsai proposed a charter deal, she also contradicts other major points in the story -- namely that there is a major schism between new owners and old owners, as well as the claim that the Liberty's fine was lowered from $1 million to $500,000. Also interesting is what has happened since these events occured in September. The WNBA subsequently had a capital raise. The evil Tsai's were allowed to contribute to that $75 million fund. So, this hated couple whose franchise was supposedly under consideration for termination now owns a larger stake in the league than before. It seems to me that maybe the whole SI story should be under scrutiny. And I just noticed that it was written by our good buddy Howard Megdal.
One more thing. As Queenie stated before, the Napa trip was never a secret. Both the Tsai's and the players talked about it immediately. You can accuse them of being naive, arrogant or willfully oblivious, but no one ever tried to hide the trip.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 03/04/22 1:48 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| A $500,000 fine is not much of a financial deterrent to a mega-billionaire such as Joe Tsai. One can only wonder what kind of business practices are "normal" for one to make that kind of money in a communist China company like Alibaba. |
I'm not writing what's here to defend what Joe Tsai and Clara Wu Tsai did. (The New York Liberty have TWO owners!) I've posted earlier that fining the Liberty $500,000 is a joke. Just like many sports fines aimed at super-rich owners and very rich athletes.
As for what kind of business practices are "normal" for making lots of money in China, I have no idea. But let's remember that Joe Tsai and Clara Wu Tsai are far from the only owners of U.S. professional sports franchises who probably made their fortunes in sleazy ways. (Or inherited their fortunes from ancestors who did.) "Normal" business practices in our country are shameful.
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Richyyy
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/04/22 2:13 pm ::: |
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Fines and punishments get a bit awkward when the owners have significantly different levels of wealth, as well. 500k is practically nothing to Tsai, but it's also over a third of the playing budget for a WNBA team for a season. If you were just running the WNBA team as an isolated business, trying to stay afloat (or at least lose as little as possible), 500k is a hefty fine. And everything you do sets a precedent for future issues. So, complicated.
The bits of the story that the League haven't argued with intrigue me. Like the assertion that the league was actually assessed at $400m for the capital raise, not the $1bn that was floated by various media outlets at the time. Which then in turn means that the $75m investment bought a significantly larger chunk of the league than originally suggested. I have no idea how that group that paid the $75m is set up, but what if someone like Tsai bought out the rest of that collection of people and businesses? He'd own nearly 20% of the league in total (between the 4.2% the Liberty ownership gets him and the 15.8% that the group bought). This is all getting increasingly complicated and I hope Engelbert knows what she's doing. |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 03/05/22 1:00 am ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| You can accuse them of being naive, arrogant or willfully oblivious, but no one ever tried to hide the trip. |
To be modest with adjectives, I'd simply accuse Tsai and the Liberty of being illegal.
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| A $500,000 fine is not much of a financial deterrent to a mega-billionaire such as Joe Tsai. One can only wonder what kind of business practices are "normal" for one to make that kind of money in a communist China company like Alibaba. |
As for what kind of business practices are "normal" for making lots of money in China, I have no idea. |
From personal legal and business experience, I can testify that business in China is rife with routine theft, payoffs, bribery and various other illegalities. But even in that business-government kleptocracy, Alibaba was penalized last year with the largest fine in Chinese antitrust law history—2.8 billion dollars—for a whole host of monopolistic predatory practices against other companies. Joe Tsai was the legal and financial architect of Alibaba.
But it's so soothing that he contributes to charities and woke causes when back in the USA; and with some pocket change, gets a moribund WNBA team out of the Westchester County Center and onto some illegal private jets. What a guy! |
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 03/05/22 12:36 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
From personal legal and business experience, I can testify that business in China is rife with routine theft, payoffs, bribery and various other illegalities. But even in that business-government kleptocracy, Alibaba was penalized last year with the largest fine in Chinese antitrust law history—2.8 billion dollars—for a whole host of monopolistic predatory practices against other companies. Joe Tsai was the legal and financial architect of Alibaba.
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So while acknowledging Chinese "business-government kleptocracy", you're also suggesting that the fine against Alibaba is somehow fair and appropriate? Government bureaucrats are dishonest except when it comes to this one company? Alibaba's founder, Jack Ma, had the temerity to question the policies of Chinese regulatory authorities. Two days later, they blocked the spinoff of Ant Financial, Alibaba's financial arm. It shocked Wall Street because the deal would have been the biggest IPO in history. It was the Chinese government's loud "F*ck you!" for the whole world to hear. Since then, they've been cracking down on large businesses run by wealthy entrepreneurs whom authorities think are too independent. It was time to show them who's boss. Pretty much the entire Chinese tech industry has been taken down. Not only did Jack Ma provoke this purge, but Alibaba is also the biggest target size-wise. So, they're getting hit the hardest. This is not to say Alibaba doesn't use questionable practices. I'm sure like all businesses, they try to squeeze out competitors as much as they can. In their retail business, I know there have been regular complaints that Alibaba makes very little effort to stamp out counterfeit merchandise. I'm sure they're also guilty of bribing government officials, which is the norm in authoritarian countries, but that part is probably acceptable. Regardless, the Chinese government has never needed an actual crime to persecute people or organizations.
What the Chinese government is now forcing companies to do is share their wealth by contributing to public development funds. It's ostensibly a solid socialist initiative and not necessarily a bad thing if those are your beliefs. But what actually happens to the money once it goes into those funding vehicles is anybody's guess.
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dreamfan11
Joined: 11 Oct 2017
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| Posted: 03/05/22 12:48 pm ::: Re: Liberty fined $500k |
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| SportsGuru wrote: |
| lynxmania wrote: |
https://www.si.com/wnba/2022/03/01/charter-flights-violation-new-york-liberty-joe-tsai-daily-cover
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| After someone alerted the WNBA to the Liberty’s violations, possible remedies floated by the league’s general counsel, Jamin Dershowitz, ranged from losing “every draft pick you have ever seen” to suspending ownership, even “grounds for termination of the franchise,” according to a Sept. 21, 2021, communication between the league and the Liberty reviewed by SI. |
| Quote: |
| The action by the Liberty alienated even some owners who support the idea of charter flights, while leaving other owners wondering whether the CBA would be enforced at all. But as the playoffs approached, the WNBA did not want a massive off-court story to get in the way of coverage, either. |
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| The Liberty, who declined to comment to SI, chartered flights for each road game of the season’s second half, beginning in August with a trip to Minnesota. And eventually, despite a cone of silence over the franchise about it, word got out. |
Don't get me wrong, I long thought the WNBA should be traveling by Charter Jets but what the New York Liberty did created an unfair advantage to win games.
A Code of Silence means Conspiracy throughout the New Yor Liberty Organization {Management & Players). I believe the New York Liberty should a long with the $500K fine, lose at the minimum their 2022 and 2023 1st Rd Draft Picks and 2023 Salary Cap frozen at 2022 amount. |
APPLAUSE! Smartest thing anyone has ever written above - that is what would happen in the NBA, or in NFL or even MLB. This is a big scandal compared to anything in another sport - a league of 12 teams and one thinks they are above the rest because they have the $ to do so. All players and management should be fined.
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NYL_WNBA_FAN
Joined: 28 May 2007
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| Posted: 03/05/22 4:55 pm ::: |
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Just want to say in my earlier posts, I didn’t realize the Liberty had chartered flights for 11 games. I don’t love that and don’t think they should be able to ignore rules that others don’t.
That said, I get why Tsai was so angry. The Liberty had two ridiculous travel circumstances in back-to-back games. I’d have been upset too.
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root_thing
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TigerVol
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 03/06/22 1:40 pm ::: |
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| New York's ownership group are paying the price for their error. That is enough said and done with that penalty alone. Using chartered flights has become a very sensitive subject within the WNBA world. The WNBA should establish specific rules and punishments whenever teams use chartered flights for the benefit of their teams. Having punishments that come from nowhere is not the fair way to conduct business.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 06/28/22 7:06 pm ::: |
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Angel City FC’s recent charter flight suggests NWSL prioritizing athlete well-being
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/06/28/angel-city-fc-charter-flight-nwsl-prioritizing-athlete-well-being/
| Quote: |
| Unlike the WNBA, the NWSL has the option to charter should a team choose. The league and players’ association agreed to their first collective-bargaining agreement before Angel City FC’s inaugural game. The NWSL made history by becoming the first women’s professional sports league to secure sponsorship from an airline company, Delta Airlines |
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Rock Hard
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 06/28/22 10:52 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
Angel City FC’s recent charter flight suggests NWSL prioritizing athlete well-being
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/06/28/angel-city-fc-charter-flight-nwsl-prioritizing-athlete-well-being/
| Quote: |
| Unlike the WNBA, the NWSL has the option to charter should a team choose. The league and players’ association agreed to their first collective-bargaining agreement before Angel City FC’s inaugural game. The NWSL made history by becoming the first women’s professional sports league to secure sponsorship from an airline company, Delta Airlines |
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Better hope no WNBA player reads that article.
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SportsGuru
Joined: 20 May 2005
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| Posted: 06/29/22 9:25 am ::: |
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| Rock Hard wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
Angel City FC’s recent charter flight suggests NWSL prioritizing athlete well-being
https://cronkitenews.azpbs.org/2022/06/28/angel-city-fc-charter-flight-nwsl-prioritizing-athlete-well-being/
| Quote: |
| Unlike the WNBA, the NWSL has the option to charter should a team choose. The league and players’ association agreed to their first collective-bargaining agreement before Angel City FC’s inaugural game. The NWSL made history by becoming the first women’s professional sports league to secure sponsorship from an airline company, Delta Airlines |
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Better hope no WNBA player reads that article. |
Why didn't the WNBAPA demand and holdout for charter flights before agreeing to the last CBA ?
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NYSports56
Joined: 03 Jul 2018
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| Posted: 06/29/22 10:40 am ::: |
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| They can fine Tsai as much as they want. If the Liberty lose a single draft pick, I have watched my last WNBA game (considering that I have virtually stopped watching every other sport besides the NFL, that's not an empty promise). Worse than the Astros stealing signs? Please.
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