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WCBB set attendance record in 2015-16
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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/13/16 8:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From the first OP link:

"The Division I championship drew 224,189 spectators for an average of 5,338 fans per session over 42 sessions (first and second rounds, regionals and Women’s Final Four). The all-time tournament session average of 7,966 was set in 2003."

This may be more indicative of national interest in ranked team DI WCBB -- namely, a decrease -- than the overall attendance increase among 344 DI schools, which could be accounted for by small attendance increases among the 319 unranked schools.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/13/16 11:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I probably shouldn't even bother to answer this, but.....

There are *reasons* for the "small" attendance at the DI championship game. They have not all that much to do with fan enthusiasm. One factor is distance from fan home base. Another, and probably much bigger, is COST....not only of tickets, but hotel accommodations, transportation, time off from work, etc. The third is enthusiasm for competing teams...lots of us have zero interest in seeing UConn win #4. Big yawn from here, anyway....and I am not necessarily an anti-UConn person as I appreciate good coaching and good play, I am just tired of massacres. When it was my team and the scores were closer it was different, but I still couldn't go because of COST, so there you are.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/13/16 11:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
I probably shouldn't even bother to answer this, but.....

There are *reasons* for the "small" attendance at the DI championship game. They have not all that much to do with fan enthusiasm. One factor is distance from fan home base. Another, and probably much bigger, is COST....not only of tickets, but hotel accommodations, transportation, time off from work, etc. The third is enthusiasm for competing teams...lots of us have zero interest in seeing UConn win #4. Big yawn from here, anyway....and I am not necessarily an anti-UConn person as I appreciate good coaching and good play, I am just tired of massacres. When it was my team and the scores were closer it was different, but I still couldn't go because of COST, so there you are.


I don't think you've addressed the issue.

First, this is not just attendance for the championship game; it's the overall average attendance for 42 games in the DI tournament, many of which are held on home courts.

Second, why should the cost factor for 42 games have been much different in 2003 than 2016?

The issue is why is there such a significant average attendance difference for 42 tournament games between 2003 (7,966) and 2016 (5,338)? As a hypothesis, I'm suggesting the answer is a general loss of national interest in watching "ranked" WCBB over the past 13 years. This hypothesis could be rebutted or supported by TV viewing data and seasonal game attendance data.

As an aside, I subjectively perceive the same decline in "attendance" and interest on WCBB boards during that same time period.
linkster



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PostPosted: 06/13/16 12:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I probably shouldn't even bother to answer this, but.....

There are *reasons* for the "small" attendance at the DI championship game. They have not all that much to do with fan enthusiasm. One factor is distance from fan home base. Another, and probably much bigger, is COST....not only of tickets, but hotel accommodations, transportation, time off from work, etc. The third is enthusiasm for competing teams...lots of us have zero interest in seeing UConn win #4. Big yawn from here, anyway....and I am not necessarily an anti-UConn person as I appreciate good coaching and good play, I am just tired of massacres. When it was my team and the scores were closer it was different, but I still couldn't go because of COST, so there you are.


I don't think you've addressed the issue.

First, this is not just attendance for the championship game; it's the overall average attendance for 42 games in the DI tournament, many of which are held on home courts.

Second, why should the cost factor for 42 games have been much different in 2003 than 2016?

The issue is why is there such a significant average attendance difference for 42 tournament games between 2003 (7,966) and 2016 (5,338)? As a hypothesis, I'm suggesting the answer is a general loss of national interest in watching "ranked" WCBB over the past 13 years. This hypothesis could be rebutted or supported by TV viewing data and seasonal game attendance data.

As an aside, I subjectively perceive the same decline in "attendance" and interest on WCBB boards during that same time period.


Do you have any evidence supporting your hypothesis? I am not certain but I would suggest that unlike 2016, most 1st and second round games were not televised and the only way to see them was to attend the game. ESPN's coverage of the entire tournament has done a lot to draw fans to the women's game but along with the advent of HDTV and large flatscreens it has given fans an alternative to attending games in person that wasn't available to the general public in 2003.


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/13/16 12:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I probably shouldn't even bother to answer this, but.....

There are *reasons* for the "small" attendance at the DI championship game. They have not all that much to do with fan enthusiasm. One factor is distance from fan home base. Another, and probably much bigger, is COST....not only of tickets, but hotel accommodations, transportation, time off from work, etc. The third is enthusiasm for competing teams...lots of us have zero interest in seeing UConn win #4. Big yawn from here, anyway....and I am not necessarily an anti-UConn person as I appreciate good coaching and good play, I am just tired of massacres. When it was my team and the scores were closer it was different, but I still couldn't go because of COST, so there you are.


I don't think you've addressed the issue.

First, this is not just attendance for the championship game; it's the overall average attendance for 42 games in the DI tournament, many of which are held on home courts.

Second, why should the cost factor for 42 games have been much different in 2003 than 2016?

The issue is why is there such a significant average attendance difference for 42 tournament games between 2003 (7,966) and 2016 (5,338)? As a hypothesis, I'm suggesting the answer is a general loss of national interest in watching "ranked" WCBB over the past 13 years. This hypothesis could be rebutted or supported by TV viewing data and seasonal game attendance data.

As an aside, I subjectively perceive the same decline in "attendance" and interest on WCBB boards during that same time period.


Why 42 games? There were 63 games in the NCAA tournament in both 2003 and 2016. Sounds like someone cherry picking data.



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Queenie



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PostPosted: 06/13/16 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I probably shouldn't even bother to answer this, but.....

There are *reasons* for the "small" attendance at the DI championship game. They have not all that much to do with fan enthusiasm. One factor is distance from fan home base. Another, and probably much bigger, is COST....not only of tickets, but hotel accommodations, transportation, time off from work, etc. The third is enthusiasm for competing teams...lots of us have zero interest in seeing UConn win #4. Big yawn from here, anyway....and I am not necessarily an anti-UConn person as I appreciate good coaching and good play, I am just tired of massacres. When it was my team and the scores were closer it was different, but I still couldn't go because of COST, so there you are.


I don't think you've addressed the issue.

First, this is not just attendance for the championship game; it's the overall average attendance for 42 games in the DI tournament, many of which are held on home courts.

Second, why should the cost factor for 42 games have been much different in 2003 than 2016?

The issue is why is there such a significant average attendance difference for 42 tournament games between 2003 (7,966) and 2016 (5,338)? As a hypothesis, I'm suggesting the answer is a general loss of national interest in watching "ranked" WCBB over the past 13 years. This hypothesis could be rebutted or supported by TV viewing data and seasonal game attendance data.

As an aside, I subjectively perceive the same decline in "attendance" and interest on WCBB boards during that same time period.


Why 42 games? There were 63 games in the NCAA tournament in both 2003 and 2016. Sounds like someone cherry picking data.


42 sessions, not 42 games. Figure the first round at each site is 2 games, second round is 1 game. My math is rough, though.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/13/16 4:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Queenie wrote:
pilight wrote:
GlennMacGrady wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
I probably shouldn't even bother to answer this, but.....

There are *reasons* for the "small" attendance at the DI championship game. They have not all that much to do with fan enthusiasm. One factor is distance from fan home base. Another, and probably much bigger, is COST....not only of tickets, but hotel accommodations, transportation, time off from work, etc. The third is enthusiasm for competing teams...lots of us have zero interest in seeing UConn win #4. Big yawn from here, anyway....and I am not necessarily an anti-UConn person as I appreciate good coaching and good play, I am just tired of massacres. When it was my team and the scores were closer it was different, but I still couldn't go because of COST, so there you are.


I don't think you've addressed the issue.

First, this is not just attendance for the championship game; it's the overall average attendance for 42 games in the DI tournament, many of which are held on home courts.

Second, why should the cost factor for 42 games have been much different in 2003 than 2016?

The issue is why is there such a significant average attendance difference for 42 tournament games between 2003 (7,966) and 2016 (5,338)? As a hypothesis, I'm suggesting the answer is a general loss of national interest in watching "ranked" WCBB over the past 13 years. This hypothesis could be rebutted or supported by TV viewing data and seasonal game attendance data.

As an aside, I subjectively perceive the same decline in "attendance" and interest on WCBB boards during that same time period.


Why 42 games? There were 63 games in the NCAA tournament in both 2003 and 2016. Sounds like someone cherry picking data.


42 sessions, not 42 games. Figure the first round at each site is 2 games, second round is 1 game. My math is rough, though.


Games, sessions. It doesn't matter. Whatever venue units the NCAA is counting, the attendance at those units was 49% higher in 2003 than 2016.

That data is the evidence for my hypothesis. The burden is on those who deny the hypothesis to produce rebutting evidence. For example, if the counter hypothesis relates to relative TV audiences, data to that effect need to be presented.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/14/16 10:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Not all were held on home courts. And many were on WORK days. I'm retired, but The Man is not. We could not attend the JMU-DePaul game, which was NOT a home game for us, because it was in effect an AWAY game, and this is true of many other local fans. JMU did send a significant number of local fans, but there was, again, COST involved.

As for Tennessee, where my other loyalty is, where did they play, Glenn? HMMMM? Reminding you again that I live in northern VA, what would the COST involved amount to for me to attend? And also reminding you that, unlike JMU, Tennessee has fans scattered across the country who may or may not be able to attend.

Fortunately, ESPN has made it possible for many of us to watch the games, even though their whip-around coverage is admittedly awful in a lot of cases. When I lived in Tennessee I was lucky enough to get to go to regionals, but after that there were watch parties at my house with bunches of people and lots of popcorn and even some beer. It's different now, but that doesn't make me less of a fan. The fact that I'm on a fixed income just means I can't attend a lot of games although I can manage season tickets for the JMU women, who have a loud and devoted following (and pretty darn large, considering the size of the school and the town).

No, Glenn, I think YOU are missing the point.



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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 06/14/16 11:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Y'all can fight over the numbers; all I'm going to say is that Happycappie and I did our part. I think between us we technically count for about 100 of that 11,366,943. (and here's part of the proof: https://twitter.com/NYCScribbler/status/721550819234095104)



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/15/16 2:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
Not all were held on home courts. And many were on WORK days. I'm retired, but The Man is not. We could not attend the JMU-DePaul game, which was NOT a home game for us, because it was in effect an AWAY game, and this is true of many other local fans. JMU did send a significant number of local fans, but there was, again, COST involved.

As for Tennessee, where my other loyalty is, where did they play, Glenn? HMMMM? Reminding you again that I live in northern VA, what would the COST involved amount to for me to attend? And also reminding you that, unlike JMU, Tennessee has fans scattered across the country who may or may not be able to attend.

Fortunately, ESPN has made it possible for many of us to watch the games, even though their whip-around coverage is admittedly awful in a lot of cases. When I lived in Tennessee I was lucky enough to get to go to regionals, but after that there were watch parties at my house with bunches of people and lots of popcorn and even some beer. It's different now, but that doesn't make me less of a fan. The fact that I'm on a fixed income just means I can't attend a lot of games although I can manage season tickets for the JMU women, who have a loud and devoted following (and pretty darn large, considering the size of the school and the town).

No, Glenn, I think YOU are missing the point.


I don't deny that cost could have affected your decision to attend venues differently in 2016 than in 2003, depending on where you lived relative to the basketball venue(s). But all venues prior to the Final Four are on some team's home court.

I'm not trying to understand your individual behavior, but the aggregate attendance behavior of hundreds of thousands of potential WCBB fans. Specifically, what hypothesis can explain an overall seasonal increase in attendance among 344 DI schools while also accounting for a decrease in attendance among the 64 teams that compete in the NCAA tournament?

The simplest explanation just seems to be a decrease in aggregate fan interest in watching tournament basketball among so-called elite or ranked teams.

An alternate explanation could be that all the fans (and more) who used to go to tournament venues in 2003 now watch those games on TV or videostream. There may be data that show such a phenomenon, but I'm not motivated to research it.

Maybe I'll post a separate topic on changes in posting volume on FBB internet boards.
ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/16/16 9:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
Not all were held on home courts. And many were on WORK days. I'm retired, but The Man is not. We could not attend the JMU-DePaul game, which was NOT a home game for us, because it was in effect an AWAY game, and this is true of many other local fans. JMU did send a significant number of local fans, but there was, again, COST involved.

As for Tennessee, where my other loyalty is, where did they play, Glenn? HMMMM? Reminding you again that I live in northern VA, what would the COST involved amount to for me to attend? And also reminding you that, unlike JMU, Tennessee has fans scattered across the country who may or may not be able to attend.

Fortunately, ESPN has made it possible for many of us to watch the games, even though their whip-around coverage is admittedly awful in a lot of cases. When I lived in Tennessee I was lucky enough to get to go to regionals, but after that there were watch parties at my house with bunches of people and lots of popcorn and even some beer. It's different now, but that doesn't make me less of a fan. The fact that I'm on a fixed income just means I can't attend a lot of games although I can manage season tickets for the JMU women, who have a loud and devoted following (and pretty darn large, considering the size of the school and the town).

No, Glenn, I think YOU are missing the point.


I don't deny that cost could have affected your decision to attend venues differently in 2016 than in 2003, depending on where you lived relative to the basketball venue(s). But all venues prior to the Final Four are on some team's home court.

I'm not trying to understand your individual behavior, but the aggregate attendance behavior of hundreds of thousands of potential WCBB fans. Specifically, what hypothesis can explain an overall seasonal increase in attendance among 344 DI schools while also accounting for a decrease in attendance among the 64 teams that compete in the NCAA tournament?

The simplest explanation just seems to be a decrease in aggregate fan interest in watching tournament basketball among so-called elite or ranked teams.

An alternate explanation could be that all the fans (and more) who used to go to tournament venues in 2003 now watch those games on TV or videostream. There may be data that show such a phenomenon, but I'm not motivated to research it.

Maybe I'll post a separate topic on changes in posting volume on FBB internet boards.


Another possible explanation: There aren't really more fans going to regular season college games. We know that the 344 college teams averaged 1,592 fans per game this year, but we don't know how many D-1 teams there were in 2003, nor how many total events there were. I'm pretty sure the number of teams was much lower, though I couldn't find it in a quick Google search, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if the average attendance per game was close to the same.

Schools may also be demanding better accounting of attendance, and thus not inflating numbers, though that's pure supposition.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 06/16/16 11:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
Not all were held on home courts. And many were on WORK days. I'm retired, but The Man is not. We could not attend the JMU-DePaul game, which was NOT a home game for us, because it was in effect an AWAY game, and this is true of many other local fans. JMU did send a significant number of local fans, but there was, again, COST involved.

As for Tennessee, where my other loyalty is, where did they play, Glenn? HMMMM? Reminding you again that I live in northern VA, what would the COST involved amount to for me to attend? And also reminding you that, unlike JMU, Tennessee has fans scattered across the country who may or may not be able to attend.

Fortunately, ESPN has made it possible for many of us to watch the games, even though their whip-around coverage is admittedly awful in a lot of cases. When I lived in Tennessee I was lucky enough to get to go to regionals, but after that there were watch parties at my house with bunches of people and lots of popcorn and even some beer. It's different now, but that doesn't make me less of a fan. The fact that I'm on a fixed income just means I can't attend a lot of games although I can manage season tickets for the JMU women, who have a loud and devoted following (and pretty darn large, considering the size of the school and the town).

No, Glenn, I think YOU are missing the point.


I don't deny that cost could have affected your decision to attend venues differently in 2016 than in 2003, depending on where you lived relative to the basketball venue(s). But all venues prior to the Final Four are on some team's home court.

I'm not trying to understand your individual behavior, but the aggregate attendance behavior of hundreds of thousands of potential WCBB fans. Specifically, what hypothesis can explain an overall seasonal increase in attendance among 344 DI schools while also accounting for a decrease in attendance among the 64 teams that compete in the NCAA tournament?

The simplest explanation just seems to be a decrease in aggregate fan interest in watching tournament basketball among so-called elite or ranked teams.

An alternate explanation could be that all the fans (and more) who used to go to tournament venues in 2003 now watch those games on TV or videostream. There may be data that show such a phenomenon, but I'm not motivated to research it.

Maybe I'll post a separate topic on changes in posting volume on FBB internet boards.


Oh, come on, Clay........my case isn't THAT unusual. In fact, it may be more usual than not! You are speaking from your elite position out there on the Left Coast and telling things the way you wish they were....or maybe the way they are in your small sphere. (Just like with volleyball, but that's another subject.)

And I and others had already made the point about TV. I pointed out that we had big "watch parties" at my house in Tennessee. Since I moved to Virginia I don't do that but we watch EVERYTHING. I suspect that is true of many other people, despite ESPN's spotty-to-lousy coverage of opening rounds.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 06/16/16 2:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:


The issue is why is there such a significant average attendance difference for 42 tournament games between 2003 (7,966) and 2016 (5,338)? As a hypothesis, I'm suggesting the answer is a general loss of national interest in watching "ranked" WCBB over the past 13 years. This hypothesis could be rebutted or supported by TV viewing data and seasonal game attendance data.

As an aside, I subjectively perceive the same decline in "attendance" and interest on WCBB boards during that same time period.


Games, sessions. It doesn't matter. Whatever venue units the NCAA is counting, the attendance at those units was 49% higher in 2003 than 2016.

That data is the evidence for my hypothesis. The burden is on those who deny the hypothesis to produce rebutting evidence. For example, if the counter hypothesis relates to relative TV audiences, data to that effect need to be presented.[/quote]

No one would suggest that interest in pro football can be measured by attendance data.

You are cherry-picking data that appears to support your position. Your hypothesis is that interest has declined but you limit your "data" to attendance. Partial data is useless data. You are the one with the hypothesis and would need to provide TV viewing stats comparing 2003 and 2016.

Now if you merely want to suggest that more people attended sessions in 2003 than in 2016 you would have a good case but to make the jump that people are less interested in 2016 based solely on attendance is voodoo logic.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/16/16 2:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aside from the usual territorial squabbles, this is an interesting thread ...

Hypothesis: Interest in WCBB has declined since 2003.

Evidence for: Attendance for postseason has declined dramatically. Message board traffic has decreased.

Evidence against: Overall attendance has increased, though the only number available is a counting stat, not a rate state (attendance per event would be better, and total revenue would be good too).

Missing data: TV ratings for regular season and postseason games.

We all have our general impressions, and mine would be that interest is about the same. Sports fans in general know who the good teams are, and know about the WNBA, but only focus when something interesting happens. High school girls are just as clueless as always, and younger girls are just as interested as they were back then.

And of course, message board conversations are just as vituperative, for no apparent reason.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 06/16/16 6:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:


The issue is why is there such a significant average attendance difference for 42 tournament games between 2003 (7,966) and 2016 (5,338)? As a hypothesis, I'm suggesting the answer is a general loss of national interest in watching "ranked" WCBB over the past 13 years. This hypothesis could be rebutted or supported by TV viewing data and seasonal game attendance data.

As an aside, I subjectively perceive the same decline in "attendance" and interest on WCBB boards during that same time period.


Games, sessions. It doesn't matter. Whatever venue units the NCAA is counting, the attendance at those units was 49% higher in 2003 than 2016.

That data is the evidence for my hypothesis. The burden is on those who deny the hypothesis to produce rebutting evidence. For example, if the counter hypothesis relates to relative TV audiences, data to that effect need to be presented.[/quote]

No one would suggest that interest in pro football can be measured by attendance data.

You are cherry-picking data that appears to support your position. Your hypothesis is that interest has declined but you limit your "data" to attendance. Partial data is useless data. You are the one with the hypothesis and would need to provide TV viewing stats comparing 2003 and 2016.

Now if you merely want to suggest that more people attended sessions in 2003 than in 2016 you would have a good case but to make the jump that people are less interested in 2016 based solely on attendance is voodoo logic.


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