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Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013 Posts: 526
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Posted: 11/27/15 9:28 pm ::: Somebody, for the love of God, please fire Holly Warlick |
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I can't take it anymore!!! There are 3 other players besides posts. Feed them. How about have the post screen the guards to get them open. Stop packing them in the lane so they don't even have to move on defense. Blow do you take top talents in the nation and minimize their talents until they are so afraid to shoot that they forget how. Ridiculous.
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dtrain34
Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 409 Location: Lacey, Washington
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12545 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 11/29/15 1:31 pm ::: |
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I 2nd this . Shes a defensive minded coach that has no idea of how to develope her players offensively. I think Warlick is a great coach just not the coach for the lady vols to restore prominence.
_________________ 3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013 Posts: 5223
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Posted: 11/29/15 1:50 pm ::: |
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She went 30-6 last year with the #1 recruit in the current junior class out with an injury (Russell) and their best player out with an injury (Harrison) and were very close to making the Final 4.
It seems nuts that people are even thinking this. She has an 82% winning percentage and if anything she probably has more room for improving since she is a new head coach. She is recruiting and winning at a high level, I think this is pretty ludicrous to consider.
The amount of coaches that are good enough to win like that and would willingly leave their current program seems sort of low. Most coaches who are successful are probably already at schools that compensate them well. Hiring some up and coming assistant could work but its also a big risk that could fail.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/15 2:22 pm ::: |
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Durantula wrote: |
She went 30-6 last year with the #1 recruit in the current junior class out with an injury (Russell) and their best player out with an injury (Harrison) and were very close to making the Final 4.
It seems nuts that people are even thinking this. She has an 82% winning percentage and if anything she probably has more room for improving since she is a new head coach. She is recruiting and winning at a high level, I think this is pretty ludicrous to consider.
The amount of coaches that are good enough to win like that and would willingly leave their current program seems sort of low. Most coaches who are successful are probably already at schools that compensate them well. Hiring some up and coming assistant could work but its also a big risk that could fail. |
Maybe, but for two things. First, I think she's coaching the style of game she grew up learning from Pat, and frankly, I think it's about 15 years out of date. She will continue to win 80% of her games simply because she has better players than at least 90% of her opponents. But I think the ceiling is limited to about where it is now.
Second, I'd agree that for most schools the "you won't find anyone better" should be a serious restraint. But this is Tennessee we're talking about. From a hiring-a-new-coach standpoint, I don't think there is a more desirable job in all of WCBB. Tradition, winning history, facilities, reputation, fan support, no academic restrictions, top notch conference, lots of TV coverage, especially with the SECN. Assuming they didn't insist on an unrealistically low salary package, I don't think there are very many coaches who would be untouchable if Tenn seriously went shopping.
But it's still a waste to talk about it because they aren't going to. They are still locked in to the Pat era, and Holly is an extension of that era. I see no indication whatsoever that Tenn is going to be interested in letting go of that and moving on anytime soon. So it is what it is, and most Tenn fans seem perfectly happy with it that way.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 2819 Location: Indiana
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Posted: 11/29/15 3:42 pm ::: |
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It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12545 Location: Dallas , Texas
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/15 7:29 pm ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
Sylvia Or Viv Stringer could be avail..hell id even go after chris dailey |
That's aiming WAY too low for the Tenn job. If they were serious about starting fresh, about the only people I'd say are likely off limits are Geno, Muffet, and Tara. Blair is probably too old. I doubt Yori is going to move. I expect Mulkey and Frese aren't moving, but I would touch base with their agent to be sure.
Beyond that, I wouldn't consider Walz, McGuff, Barnes-Arico, Merchant, Semrau, Rueck, Hillsman, Washington, Coale or Graves unrealistic for the Tenn job, and while some or most would likely say no in the end, if I was the Tenn AD and decided to really break away and start a new direction, they would all be on my list to contact. They'd all be a big step up.
But let's face it. Tenn isn't going to change coaches anytime soon, and if they did, it would likely be to another person with close ties to Pat.
This job currently isn't about "following" a legend. This job is about trying to continue a legend indefinitely.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/15 7:33 pm ::: |
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purduefanatic wrote: |
It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit. |
I don't think that has anything to do with the current situation. The problems with "following a legend" are about struggling for acceptance from fans and unrealistic expectations. I don't think Holly faces any of that. Her close association with Pat shields her from any such problems. She's a continuation of Pat.
The problems of "following a legend" won't arise unless and until Tenn finally decides to put the past behind them and start fresh with someone from outside the family. That person will likely face those problems of acceptance, of being the outsider, and of constant comparison to Pat. But none of that is a problem for Warlick.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 2819 Location: Indiana
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Posted: 11/29/15 7:55 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
purduefanatic wrote: |
It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit. |
I don't think that has anything to do with the current situation. The problems with "following a legend" are about struggling for acceptance from fans and unrealistic expectations. I don't think Holly faces any of that. Her close association with Pat shields her from any such problems. She's a continuation of Pat.
The problems of "following a legend" won't arise unless and until Tenn finally decides to put the past behind them and start fresh with someone from outside the family. That person will likely face those problems of acceptance, of being the outsider, and of constant comparison to Pat. But none of that is a problem for Warlick. |
I respectfully disagree.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 11/29/15 8:01 pm ::: |
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And anyway, Heartless Dave doesn't give two whoops about women's sports. I doubt if he even gives one.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18042 Location: Queens
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Posted: 11/29/15 8:24 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
purduefanatic wrote: |
It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit. |
I don't think that has anything to do with the current situation. The problems with "following a legend" are about struggling for acceptance from fans and unrealistic expectations. I don't think Holly faces any of that. Her close association with Pat shields her from any such problems. She's a continuation of Pat.
The problems of "following a legend" won't arise unless and until Tenn finally decides to put the past behind them and start fresh with someone from outside the family. That person will likely face those problems of acceptance, of being the outsider, and of constant comparison to Pat. But none of that is a problem for Warlick. |
I think it cuts both ways with Warlick, and will with whoever follows her someday.
On the one hand, she's Summitt's chosen successor, the heiress apparent. Criticizing her can be seen as criticizing Summitt. She's probably getting less heat internally and from long-time Tennessee fans than she is from outsiders.
On the other hand, she does have to follow the legend, and it's clear she wants so very much to be Pat, so she's going to have to live with the constant comparisons.
On the other other hand (I borrowed it), the first non-Tennessee-related coach to take that job is going to have to succeed fast, to prove that getting away from the legacy was the right thing to do. I think a lot of people forget how young women's basketball tradition is. Summitt was the founder of dynasties; a coach from outside that long and illustrious legacy might be seen as an upstart, usurper of an imperial throne.
TL;DR: Warlick has to live with the expectations Summitt created for Tennessee basketball; the first outsider in the job has to live with the history Summitt created in WCBB.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/15 8:46 pm ::: |
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Queenie wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
purduefanatic wrote: |
It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit. |
I don't think that has anything to do with the current situation. The problems with "following a legend" are about struggling for acceptance from fans and unrealistic expectations. I don't think Holly faces any of that. Her close association with Pat shields her from any such problems. She's a continuation of Pat.
The problems of "following a legend" won't arise unless and until Tenn finally decides to put the past behind them and start fresh with someone from outside the family. That person will likely face those problems of acceptance, of being the outsider, and of constant comparison to Pat. But none of that is a problem for Warlick. |
I think it cuts both ways with Warlick, and will with whoever follows her someday.
On the one hand, she's Summitt's chosen successor, the heiress apparent. Criticizing her can be seen as criticizing Summitt. She's probably getting less heat internllally and from long-time Tennessee fans than she is from outsiders.
On the other hand, she does have to follow the legend, and it's clear she wants so very much to be Pat, so she's going to have to live with the constant comparisons.
On the other other hand (I borrowed it), the first non-Tennessee-related coach to take that job is going to have to succeed fast, to prove that getting away from the legacy was the right thing to do. I think a lot of people forget how young women's basketball tradition is. Summitt was the founder of dynasties; a coach from outside that long and illustrious legacy might be seen as an upstart, usurper of an imperial throne.
TL;DR: Warlick has to live with the expectations Summitt created for Tennessee basketball; the first outsider in the job has to live with the history Summitt created in WCBB. |
Well said.
And, if they had gone outside when Holly ascended to the job, I expect that person would have faced both types of pressure and the screams for the person's head would likely be unbearable at this point if the performance had been the same as Holly's has been.
Holly largely gets a pass and the criticism is very muted because, as you say, criticizing her can be seen as criticizing Summit. After all, she's running Pat's system, basically without change, and from all outward appearances has Pat's full support.
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zvyn3
Joined: 20 Jul 2013 Posts: 418 Location: away from here
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Posted: 11/29/15 10:34 pm ::: |
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I've been patient with her until this year. I can't take it anymore. It's very apparent that she's incapable of getting the job done. She's simply a terrible coach. Four games that they barely won against vastly inferior teams, and the first decent team they play they get embarrassed and shoot 30% from the field. She has no idea how to run a competent offense that gets players in position to score. Can't defend the three for shit either. Constant turnovers. Can't develop players at all. Recruits aren't coming anymore. Nobody wants to play here, and for good reason. And she's never going to be fired because we just gave her an extension and Dave Hart doesn't care about women's athletics. The program is going to be run completely into the ground. Future is very, very bleak.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/15 11:54 pm ::: |
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zvyn3 wrote: |
I've been patient with her until this year. I can't take it anymore. It's very apparent that she's incapable of getting the job done. She's simply a terrible coach. Four games that they barely won against vastly inferior teams, and the first decent team they play they get embarrassed and shoot 30% from the field. She has no idea how to run a competent offense that gets players in position to score. Can't defend the three for shit either. Constant turnovers. Can't develop players at all. Recruits aren't coming anymore. Nobody wants to play here, and for good reason. And she's never going to be fired because we just gave her an extension and Dave Hart doesn't care about women's athletics. The program is going to be run completely into the ground. Future is very, very bleak. |
I don't know if she is. Not sure if it's entirely her or if she is saddled with an outdated system and either can't or isn't willing to change from it.
I don't think Pat Summit would be doing any better with this system. It was premised on having bigger, more athletic, and more talented players than everyone else, and then having them play physical defense, rebound, pound the ball inside, and have individual scorers.
That just won't work any more. Other teams have talented players too. And the evolution of the rules prevents that physical defensive style - those get called as fouls now.
Other teams are running increasingly sophisticated offenses. Tenn needs to get with it. I'm not clear whether Warlick can do that, and whether she actually has the freedom to do that. She might lose the support of being part of Pat's legacy if she scrapped Pat's system. She's probably boxed in to some extent.
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bballgrl
Joined: 15 Sep 2007 Posts: 3629
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Posted: 11/30/15 12:20 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
zvyn3 wrote: |
I've been patient with her until this year. I can't take it anymore. It's very apparent that she's incapable of getting the job done. She's simply a terrible coach. Four games that they barely won against vastly inferior teams, and the first decent team they play they get embarrassed and shoot 30% from the field. She has no idea how to run a competent offense that gets players in position to score. Can't defend the three for shit either. Constant turnovers. Can't develop players at all. Recruits aren't coming anymore. Nobody wants to play here, and for good reason. And she's never going to be fired because we just gave her an extension and Dave Hart doesn't care about women's athletics. The program is going to be run completely into the ground. Future is very, very bleak. |
I don't know if she is. Not sure if it's entirely her or if she is saddled with an outdated system and either can't or isn't willing to change from it.
I don't think Pat Summit would be doing any better with this system. It was premised on having bigger, more athletic, and more talented players than everyone else, and then having them play physical defense, rebound, pound the ball inside, and have individual scorers.
That just won't work any more. Other teams have talented players too. And the evolution of the rules prevents that physical defensive style - those get called as fouls now.
Other teams are running increasingly sophisticated offenses. Tenn needs to get with it. I'm not clear whether Warlick can do that, and whether she actually has the freedom to do that. She might lose the support of being part of Pat's legacy if she scrapped Pat's system. She's probably boxed in to some extent. |
I think Holly is close enough with Pat to discuss a change with her. Then again, the team was not in their glory years when Pat stepped down so they all should be looking for a better way to do things.
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geeceem
Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Posts: 123
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Posted: 11/30/15 8:13 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
zvyn3 wrote: |
I've been patient with her until this year. I can't take it anymore. It's very apparent that she's incapable of getting the job done. She's simply a terrible coach. Four games that they barely won against vastly inferior teams, and the first decent team they play they get embarrassed and shoot 30% from the field. She has no idea how to run a competent offense that gets players in position to score. Can't defend the three for shit either. Constant turnovers. Can't develop players at all. Recruits aren't coming anymore. Nobody wants to play here, and for good reason. And she's never going to be fired because we just gave her an extension and Dave Hart doesn't care about women's athletics. The program is going to be run completely into the ground. Future is very, very bleak. |
I don't know if she is. Not sure if it's entirely her or if she is saddled with an outdated system and either can't or isn't willing to change from it.
I don't think Pat Summit would be doing any better with this system. It was premised on having bigger, more athletic, and more talented players than everyone else, and then having them play physical defense, rebound, pound the ball inside, and have individual scorers.
That just won't work any more. Other teams have talented players too. And the evolution of the rules prevents that physical defensive style - those get called as fouls now. |
Doesn't this describe a whole lot of teams now? I'd say it certainly describes my Terps, who live off overpowering their opponents physically by dominating the boards and running the floor. The notable exception is of course Geno and to a slightly lesser degree, Muffet--and my Terps come undone in the face of those disciplined teams. I expect us to be taken to the cleaners by UConn at MSG in December.
I thought one of Carolyn Peck's comments was particularly illustrative: toward the end of the TX/TN game, she suggested that it was simply time for TN to get the ball to DeShields and "let her make things happen." Teams that rely on that sort of individualistic strategy have basically zero chance to beat Geno's teams.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/30/15 10:10 am ::: |
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geeceem wrote: |
Doesn't this describe a whole lot of teams now? I'd say it certainly describes my Terps, who live off overpowering their opponents physically by dominating the boards and running the floor. |
Frankly I think the Terps problem is typically that they become too perimeter oriented and pass up opportunities to feed the ball in to the post even when it's available. They certainly would never be accused of forcing it inside excessively. So no, I don't consider the Terps at all similar to Pat Summit's Tenn style.
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geeceem
Joined: 10 Mar 2014 Posts: 123
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Posted: 11/30/15 10:43 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
geeceem wrote: |
Doesn't this describe a whole lot of teams now? I'd say it certainly describes my Terps, who live off overpowering their opponents physically by dominating the boards and running the floor. |
Frankly I think the Terps problem is typically that they become too perimeter oriented and pass up opportunities to feed the ball in to the post even when it's available. They certainly would never be accused of forcing it inside excessively. So no, I don't consider the Terps at all similar to Pat Summit's Tenn style. |
To be sure, with Lexi Brown last year and Brene this year, we finally have had guards again who have been scoring threats, but they're really the first since K. Toliver in 2009. The perimeter passing during the A.Thomas years may have been a function of trying to get the ball to Alyssa as often as possible--mainly because nobody else could score consistently. (It was the Peck strategy: "Get the ball to Alyssa and see what she can make happen...")
Plus, the Terps have always turned the ball over a lot. I wish I knew the percentage that resulted from trying to force the ball inside. (This year is remarkable for us so far in that our turnover average is somewhere between 14-15/game. But let's see what happens when we get some serious opposition.)
I don't disagree that there are dissimilarities between their offenses, but I think that against disciplined defenses, they're going to be more alike than different.
Boy, do I hope I'm wrong.....
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cattekin
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Posts: 252 Location: San Mateo, Calif.
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Posted: 12/02/15 10:11 am ::: |
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purduefanatic wrote: |
It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit. |
Agreed, though at UC Santa Barbara, maybe it'll best to be the coach (Bonnie Henrickson) who replaces the coach (Carlene Mitchell) who replaces the coach (Lindsay Gottlieb) who replaces the legend (Mark French).
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11166
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Posted: 12/02/15 10:23 am ::: |
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cattekin wrote: |
purduefanatic wrote: |
It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit. |
Agreed, though at UC Santa Barbara, maybe it'll best to be the coach (Bonnie Henrickson) who replaces the coach (Carlene Mitchell) who replaces the coach (Lindsay Gottlieb) who replaces the legend (Mark French). |
My Gauchos are now 1-7 ... it's going to be a long road back after Carlene Mitchell torched the program.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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IM in OC
Joined: 25 Mar 2009 Posts: 999 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: 12/02/15 10:36 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
cattekin wrote: |
purduefanatic wrote: |
It is always hard to replace the legend as you are going to be held to the extremely high levels of success that the predecessor had. The best thing is to be the person that replaces the person that replaces the legend, once things have calmed down & expectations are tempered just a little bit. |
Agreed, though at UC Santa Barbara, maybe it'll best to be the coach (Bonnie Henrickson) who replaces the coach (Carlene Mitchell) who replaces the coach (Lindsay Gottlieb) who replaces the legend (Mark French). |
My Gauchos are now 1-7 ... it's going to be a long road back after Carlene Mitchell torched the program. |
The Gauchos top 3 scorers, and 4 of their top 5 scorers are Freshmen or Sophomores. Their freshman guard, from OC, has a 1.6 assist to turnover ratio, for a 1-7 team that isnt bad either. Perhaps there is a future for a team that just a few years ago faced Griner and the Baylor bears in round 1 of the NCAA.
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Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013 Posts: 526
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Posted: 12/02/15 3:32 pm ::: Re: Somebody, for the love of God, please fire Holly Warlick |
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summertime blues wrote: |
Skyfan22 wrote: |
I can't take it anymore!!! There are 3 other players besides posts. Feed them. How about have the post screen the guards to get them open. Stop packing them in the lane so they don't even have to move on defense. Blow do you take top talents in the nation and minimize their talents until they are so afraid to shoot that they forget how. Ridiculous. |
Perhaps you would like to apply for the job? |
I Would totally take this chance.
I think she has disenfranchised her players. Multiple 3 point shooters on that team, all slumping until DeShields during the last game seems to be more than coincidence. These women are barely adults, try some positive reinforcement rather then essentially telling them they are an afterthought on the perimeter in favor of the posts. I think holly's approach is getting to Mercedes too. She didn't even try to bang with the Texas girls.
Another irritant, Warlick takes out cooper in the 3d after DeShields had the team within about 4 points. Totally froze the offense. Why sub in to disrupt 2 running mates that are energizing the team? If I were running the offense I think trying a screen and cut and pass and cut type motion offense is better than standing around the premier stuffing it into a log jam. Get Bashara and Mercedes out from under the basket setting screens until there is a mismatch or have them duck in with a slower post.
If I recall Mercedes was noted for her passing at the high post. So having her down on the block 90% of the time doesn't necessarily play to all of her talent either, needless to say the rest of the team either.
Furthermore, I would not have jones, Reynolds or carter playing nearly as much. The defense they bring is not enough to cover up zero offensive threat. Reynolds in particular was terrible in the 2d half. Charge up the court, dribble for 10-14 seconds then pick up her dribble so that the rest of the team had to scramble to get open leaving everyone out of position with 12-15 seconds to shoot.
Now on defense, why go to a zone at all? They were doing enough to contain Texas using the man. Plus they have bigs that are able to deal with the Texas height.
Also, they don't do themselves any favors for their defense by stand Oh my gosh! Around the perimeter on offense. Make the opponent move, not just camp out in the lane for a nap when the opponent is on defense. Also zone is so boring anyway. Standing on one end begets standing on the other.
At the very least it would be more entertaining to watch.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 12/02/15 10:04 pm ::: |
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I guess you know where Heartless Dave's office is.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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