RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

B1G off season newz
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
NoDakSt



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/09/15 11:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

KBA has also beaten Michigan State. I don't think Borseth accomplished that but I could be wrong. That may not sound like much, but if you have a program that hasn't achieved recent success, that might be a valuable measure in rebuilding.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/09/15 11:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mzonefan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


Three year conference record in a mediocre WBB conference:

2012-13 : 9-7, 5th place
2013-14 : 8-10, 8th place
2014-15 : 8-10, 8th place

Sure sounds deserving of a raise and extension to me. Rolling Eyes

How exactly has her record been an improvement over Borseth's?


You might as well get the numbers right for 13-14.

Borseth wasn't granted an extension after year three. He was under a previous A.D., so it's kind of a moot issue. Considering the big dip he took in year two, I wouldn't have considered taking the risk after year three either.

Borseth's first three years:

2007-08 19-14 9-9 #7 seed WNIT Quarterfinal
2008-09 10-20 3-15 #11 seed (ended w/8 straight losses)
2009-10 21-14 8-10 #7 seed WNIT Semifinal

Barnes Arico's:
2012-13 22-11 9-7 #5 seed NCAA, 2nd Round
2013-14 20-14 8-8 #7 seed WNIT, 3rd Round
2014-15 20-15 8-10 #8 seed* WNIT, semifinals

Seed is for Big Ten Tournament.
*BIG increased to 14 teams


If you don't like the '13-'14 record I listed, complain to the Big 10, not to me. They say Michigan's record was 8-10. http://www.bigten.org/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/w-baskbl-standings1314.html It doesn't matter; the outcome's the same either way.

Borseth was there five years, not three. Look at all five. He took over a quagmire that had gone 1-15, 0-16, 3-13 in conf the previous three years and turned it around into an an NCAA team. The reality is that Barnes Arico's trajectory is the opposite. In her first year she made the NCAAs with the team Borseth built, but the farther they get away from this being Borseth's team and players, the worse they are becoming. That's what the data shows. Her record is not an improvement over Borseth's, and it's headed the wrong direction. And she took over an NCAA team, not a total train wreck last place mess like he did. Given the complete lack of similarity in the situations they took over, your "only look at their first three years" seems rather disingenuous.

I notice you didn't answer the question, would Mich would have given a raise to a MBB or FB or Hockey coach with her level of performance. I don't think they would. I think you know that's the answer too.




Last edited by ArtBest23 on 10/09/15 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total
NoDakSt



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/09/15 11:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Hawkeyes have across the board depth but need the experience in order to fill the space left by last year's senior class.


http://www.hawkeyesports.com/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/100515aaa.html


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/09/15 11:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
mzonefan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


Three year conference record in a mediocre WBB conference:

2012-13 : 9-7, 5th place
2013-14 : 8-10, 8th place
2014-15 : 8-10, 8th place

Sure sounds deserving of a raise and extension to me. Rolling Eyes

How exactly has her record been an improvement over Borseth's?

I wonder if Mich would have given a raise to a MBB or FB or Hockey coach with that performance.


You might as well get the numbers right for 13-14.


Now, mzonefan.....you know how Art likes to put the BEST possible spin on everything, right? Laughing


And we know that you like to make rude (and typically incorrect) comments that add absolutely zero to the discussion. Rolling Eyes


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15691
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 10/09/15 1:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Howee wrote:
mzonefan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


Three year conference record in a mediocre WBB conference:

2012-13 : 9-7, 5th place
2013-14 : 8-10, 8th place
2014-15 : 8-10, 8th place

Sure sounds deserving of a raise and extension to me. Rolling Eyes

How exactly has her record been an improvement over Borseth's?

I wonder if Mich would have given a raise to a MBB or FB or Hockey coach with that performance.


You might as well get the numbers right for 13-14.


Now, mzonefan.....you know how Art likes to put the BEST possible spin on everything, right? Laughing


And we know that you like to make rude (and typically incorrect) comments that add absolutely zero to the discussion. Rolling Eyes


Rude? Hmm. (I'm wondering what KIM would think of yours? Laughing) I only said "BEST possible spin...." And I'm quite correct. But go ahead, take a poll if you like! Razz

And even IF my post adds "zero" to the discussion, I'm still ahead of YOU. Yours was an unnecessary NEGATIVE pot-shot at a fine coach.



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/09/15 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Never mind.
Not worth it.


22



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 102



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/11/15 5:02 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
mzonefan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


Three year conference record in a mediocre WBB conference:

2012-13 : 9-7, 5th place
2013-14 : 8-10, 8th place
2014-15 : 8-10, 8th place

Sure sounds deserving of a raise and extension to me. Rolling Eyes

How exactly has her record been an improvement over Borseth's?


You might as well get the numbers right for 13-14.

Borseth wasn't granted an extension after year three. He was under a previous A.D., so it's kind of a moot issue. Considering the big dip he took in year two, I wouldn't have considered taking the risk after year three either.

Borseth's first three years:

2007-08 19-14 9-9 #7 seed WNIT Quarterfinal
2008-09 10-20 3-15 #11 seed (ended w/8 straight losses)
2009-10 21-14 8-10 #7 seed WNIT Semifinal

Barnes Arico's:
2012-13 22-11 9-7 #5 seed NCAA, 2nd Round
2013-14 20-14 8-8 #7 seed WNIT, 3rd Round
2014-15 20-15 8-10 #8 seed* WNIT, semifinals

Seed is for Big Ten Tournament.
*BIG increased to 14 teams


If you don't like the '13-'14 record I listed, complain to the Big 10, not to me. They say Michigan's record was 8-10. http://www.bigten.org/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/w-baskbl-standings1314.html It doesn't matter; the outcome's the same either way.

Borseth was there five years, not three. Look at all five. He took over a quagmire that had gone 1-15, 0-16, 3-13 in conf the previous three years and turned it around into an an NCAA team. The reality is that Barnes Arico's trajectory is the opposite. In her first year she made the NCAAs with the team Borseth built, but the farther they get away from this being Borseth's team and players, the worse they are becoming. That's what the data shows. Her record is not an improvement over Borseth's, and it's headed the wrong direction. And she took over an NCAA team, not a total train wreck last place mess like he did. Given the complete lack of similarity in the situations they took over, your "only look at their first three years" seems rather disingenuous.

I notice you didn't answer the question, would Mich would have given a raise to a MBB or FB or Hockey coach with her level of performance. I don't think they would. I think you know that's the answer too.


Well I don't know if any of those make a great comparison, but last year -- after a stronger 3 yr downward trend than wbb -- the top 2 asst football coaches received raises totaling more than KBA's this year. So without any knowledge of the actual contracts in place, we do know that they've spent at least as much in fb coaching salary increases for her level of performance (or worse).

Seems the better question would be whether the contracts get extended for similar performance (the head fb coach got fired after his 4th yr, and the 2 assts were not retained); but there seem to be a lot of other variables that such black-and-white questions would not account for....


mzonefan



Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 4878
Location: Ann Arbor, MI


Back to top
PostPosted: 10/11/15 8:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NoDakSt wrote:
KBA has also beaten Michigan State. I don't think Borseth accomplished that but I could be wrong. That may not sound like much, but if you have a program that hasn't achieved recent success, that might be a valuable measure in rebuilding.


Good point.

Borseth went 1-11 vs MSU, with his only win coming in his first season. KBA is 3-4 vs MSU, going 2-1 this past season. Michigan won at Michigan State for the first time in 15 years. That being said, MSU has owned U-M in the B1G tourney lately, shutting the Wolverines out in all three of KBA's seasons.


mzonefan



Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 4878
Location: Ann Arbor, MI


Back to top
PostPosted: 10/11/15 8:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:


If you don't like the '13-'14 record I listed, complain to the Big 10, not to me. They say Michigan's record was 8-10. http://www.bigten.org/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/w-baskbl-standings1314.html It doesn't matter; the outcome's the same either way.

Borseth was there five years, not three. Look at all five. He took over a quagmire that had gone 1-15, 0-16, 3-13 in conf the previous three years and turned it around into an an NCAA team. The reality is that Barnes Arico's trajectory is the opposite. In her first year she made the NCAAs with the team Borseth built, but the farther they get away from this being Borseth's team and players, the worse they are becoming. That's what the data shows. Her record is not an improvement over Borseth's, and it's headed the wrong direction. And she took over an NCAA team, not a total train wreck last place mess like he did. Given the complete lack of similarity in the situations they took over, your "only look at their first three years" seems rather disingenuous.

I notice you didn't answer the question, would Mich would have given a raise to a MBB or FB or Hockey coach with her level of performance. I don't think they would. I think you know that's the answer too.


Since the expectations are so different for those programs in comparison to WBB, it wasn't worth answering. Some day I hope the standard is raised enough for WBB that those expectations would be similar.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/11/15 11:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mzonefan wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


If you don't like the '13-'14 record I listed, complain to the Big 10, not to me. They say Michigan's record was 8-10. http://www.bigten.org/sports/w-baskbl/spec-rel/w-baskbl-standings1314.html It doesn't matter; the outcome's the same either way.

Borseth was there five years, not three. Look at all five. He took over a quagmire that had gone 1-15, 0-16, 3-13 in conf the previous three years and turned it around into an an NCAA team. The reality is that Barnes Arico's trajectory is the opposite. In her first year she made the NCAAs with the team Borseth built, but the farther they get away from this being Borseth's team and players, the worse they are becoming. That's what the data shows. Her record is not an improvement over Borseth's, and it's headed the wrong direction. And she took over an NCAA team, not a total train wreck last place mess like he did. Given the complete lack of similarity in the situations they took over, your "only look at their first three years" seems rather disingenuous.

I notice you didn't answer the question, would Mich would have given a raise to a MBB or FB or Hockey coach with her level of performance. I don't think they would. I think you know that's the answer too.


Since the expectations are so different for those programs in comparison to WBB, it wasn't worth answering. Some day I hope the standard is raised enough for WBB that those expectations would be similar.


That's exactly the point. There's no reason at all for the expectations to be lower today. And as long as schools AND FANS accept and demand less, they'll get less.

I don't understand why people complain about disparate treatment in so many other things and then are so quick to excuse this.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/11/15 11:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

22 wrote:


Well I don't know if any of those make a great comparison, but last year -- after a stronger 3 yr downward trend than wbb -- the top 2 asst football coaches received raises totaling more than KBA's this year. So without any knowledge of the actual contracts in place, we do know that they've spent at least as much in fb coaching salary increases for her level of performance (or worse).
.



I don't understand your point. The head football coach got fired by Michigan. Most assistants got fired. Football teams nearly always retain one or two assistants for recruiting continuity. And Greg Mattison is a key recruiter, is old and well regarded, having made the rounds in pros and college FB for 30 years, and he got demoted from defensive coordinator to defensive line coach. And all Mich FB assts now make more because higher pay for assistant coaches was one of Harbugh's demands in order to take the job.

The ony relevant point is that head FB coaches with records like the WBB coach lose their job. The last two got fired after 3 and 4 years, the latest one with a 31-20 record. There's an obvious double standard. WBB players deserve the same level of expectations and coaching performance as male athletes. Why should anyone expect or accept less for the women?


LegoMyEggo



Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 284



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/11/15 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Perhaps the department that works with her on a daily basis has seen enough that they believe in her long term. I'm glad not every place is instant gratification and is willing to be patient.


22



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 102



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/12/15 12:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
22 wrote:


Well I don't know if any of those make a great comparison, but last year -- after a stronger 3 yr downward trend than wbb -- the top 2 asst football coaches received raises totaling more than KBA's this year. So without any knowledge of the actual contracts in place, we do know that they've spent at least as much in fb coaching salary increases for her level of performance (or worse).
.



I don't understand your point. The head football coach got fired by Michigan. Most assistants got fired. Football teams nearly always retain one or two assistants for recruiting continuity. And Greg Mattison is a key recruiter, is old and well regarded, having made the rounds in pros and college FB for 30 years, and he got demoted from defensive coordinator to defensive line coach. And all Mich FB assts now make more because higher pay for assistant coaches was one of Harbugh's demands in order to take the job.

The ony relevant point is that head FB coaches with records like the WBB coach lose their job. The last two got fired after 3 and 4 years, the latest one with a 31-20 record. There's an obvious double standard. WBB players deserve the same level of expectations and coaching performance as male athletes. Why should anyone expect or accept less for the women?


My first point referred to last year, 2014-15 over 13-14, when the assistants under Hoke got raises as well despite the team's underperformance.

My larger point though was that looking at W-L record as the only relevant point of comparison is overly simplistic (and even with Hoke's 31-20 the trend of 11-2, 8-5, 7-6, 5-7, not just the overall record wld be relevant).

Of course a program with a long storied tradition that includes national championships could have different expectations than a less successful program. Don't you think the coaches who followed Wooden, Knight, Smith, etc. may have been subjected to higher expectations than coaches of other men's or women's programs (fairly or unfairly; and not even accounting for the differing financial & recruiting advantages accrued from long successful histories)?

And even if in the abstract everyone that might influence wbb hiring had the exact same standards as for fb, the practical impact of the #s of fans/donors and their $$s will be much greater.

As I said, the question of whether coaches get fired/extended is a better one than what you originally asked about raises - but it's still not only about W-L record. I could've used the example of Tommy Amaker getting 6 yrs even though he significantly underperformed KBA, but that seemed even less apples-to-apples given the sanctions he had to deal with, which were clearly also relevant.


NoDakSt



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 9:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ohio State picks up verbal from Kiara Lewis, top 25 ranked player out of Chicago. She's a 5-6 pg.


dtsnms



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 9:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
22 wrote:


Well I don't know if any of those make a great comparison, but last year -- after a stronger 3 yr downward trend than wbb -- the top 2 asst football coaches received raises totaling more than KBA's this year. So without any knowledge of the actual contracts in place, we do know that they've spent at least as much in fb coaching salary increases for her level of performance (or worse).
.



I don't understand your point. The head football coach got fired by Michigan. Most assistants got fired. Football teams nearly always retain one or two assistants for recruiting continuity. And Greg Mattison is a key recruiter, is old and well regarded, having made the rounds in pros and college FB for 30 years, and he got demoted from defensive coordinator to defensive line coach. And all Mich FB assts now make more because higher pay for assistant coaches was one of Harbugh's demands in order to take the job.

The ony relevant point is that head FB coaches with records like the WBB coach lose their job. The last two got fired after 3 and 4 years, the latest one with a 31-20 record. There's an obvious double standard. WBB players deserve the same level of expectations and coaching performance as male athletes. Why should anyone expect or accept less for the women?


Let's not forget the head football coach was fired in part after sending a clearly concussed player back out on the field.

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/03/353424606/michigan-football-apologizes-for-letting-qb-with-a-concussion-play


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 10:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

dtsnms wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
22 wrote:


Well I don't know if any of those make a great comparison, but last year -- after a stronger 3 yr downward trend than wbb -- the top 2 asst football coaches received raises totaling more than KBA's this year. So without any knowledge of the actual contracts in place, we do know that they've spent at least as much in fb coaching salary increases for her level of performance (or worse).
.



I don't understand your point. The head football coach got fired by Michigan. Most assistants got fired. Football teams nearly always retain one or two assistants for recruiting continuity. And Greg Mattison is a key recruiter, is old and well regarded, having made the rounds in pros and college FB for 30 years, and he got demo.ited from defensive coordinator to defensive line coach. And all Mich FB assts now make more because higher pay for assistant coaches was one of Harbugh's demands in order to take the job.

The ony relevant point is that head FB coaches with records like the WBB coach lose their job. The last two got fired after 3 and 4 years, the latest one with a 31-20 record. There's an obvious double standard. WBB players deserve the same level of expectations and coaching performance as male athletes. Why should anyone expect or accept less for the women?


Let's not forget the head football coach was fired in part after sending a clearly concussed player back out on the field.

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/03/353424606/michigan-football-apologizes-for-letting-qb-with-a-concussion-play


That wasn't the least little bit why he got fired. He got fired for going 5-7 including being shutout 31-0 by Notre Dame.

If he was winning, he wouldn't have been fired for the concussion. It was just used by people who already wanted him replaced. Nor does it explain the previous coach geting fired in 3 years.

I would expect people on this board, of all places, to be intollerant of such obvious double standards and to demand that WBB players be treated with more respect and attention by their school administrations. Instead I never cease to be amazed how obvious examples are always met with nothing but endless excuses. Why do people feel compelled to defend underperforming coaches just because they're women? There won't be equal treatment until you expect and demand equal performance.

If the WBB fans on this board don't take WBB seriously and demand excellence, why you ever expect ADs and school presidents to do so?


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15691
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 1:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Instead I never cease to be amazed how obvious examples are always met with nothing but endless excuses. Why do people feel compelled to defend underperforming coaches just because they're women? There won't be equal treatment until you expect and demand equal performance.


Rebkell's is LOADED with the negative, hypercritical sorts. What empirically defines "underperforming" is pretty broad. KBA HAS a proven track record of Quality, when one considers her entire body of work, and finding "better" is never an easy process. Ask Tennessee. Or Duke.

To have faith, and trust her capacity for even higher potential is, imo, an intelligent move by her AD.



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Perfect example.

Look at a thorougly mediocre 16 year career record including three years of steadily declining performance at Michigan and simply declare it a "proven track record of quality" as if such a declaration makes it true. She parlayed her best career year into a new job. It's not like that year was typical.

Aim higher, strive for better, demand true excellence.

I didn't say she should be fired now - she shouldn't. But she certainly hasn't done anything to warrant a raise or extension or any of glowing plaudits from her boss. Her seat should be considered quite warm. It certainly would be if she was coaching a mens sport.

By the way, there are a lot of even worse performing coaches who get kept around forever in WBB. That doesn't justify her raise, it just proves the broader point that there is a double standard and a widespread lack of respect for WBB. She just happens to be the example here because her raise and promotion came up as news here.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15691
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 2:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Look at a thorougly mediocre 16 year career record including three years of steadily declining performance at Michigan and simply declare it a "proven track record of quality" as if such a declaration makes it true.


Again. "mediocre"? I'd give ya that, IFF she was only/ever coaching against the Arkansas-Pine Bluffs/Northern Arizonas of the NCAA. She banged it around with the UConn/Notre Dame/Rutgers/DePaul set. (And she beat Geno once!) Now, she's still in a power conference, where "middle" ain't all that bad.

And, again: who do you replace her with? That's a rough & unproductive carousel to jump on. Let the woman prove herself after 5-7 years.

AND: Recruiting is everything. It's not like she's been able to jump in and get All The Best in 3 years. Yes, "our sport" may benefit from a higher expectation, but I still say, Accentuate/Affirm the positive, and you just might create it.



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 2:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Look at a thorougly mediocre 16 year career record including three years of steadily declining performance at Michigan and simply declare it a "proven track record of quality" as if such a declaration makes it true.


Again. "mediocre"? I'd give ya that, IFF she was only/ever coaching against the Arkansas-Pine Bluffs/Northern Arizonas of the NCAA. She banged it around with the UConn/Notre Dame/Rutgers/DePaul set. (And she beat Geno once!) Now, she's still in a power conference, where "middle" ain't all that bad.

And, again: who do you replace her with? That's a rough & unproductive carousel to jump on. Let the woman prove herself after 5-7 years.

AND: Recruiting is everything. It's not like she's been able to jump in and get All The Best in 3 years. Yes, "our sport" may benefit from a higher expectation, but I still say, Accentuate/Affirm the positive, and you just might create it.


As I said, I'm not proposing replacing her now. I'd give her two more years to turn things positive. But I wouldn't be giving her a raise or extension. I don't see how three declining years warrants a raise and extension.


dtsnms



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 2:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
dtsnms wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
22 wrote:


Well I don't know if any of those make a great comparison, but last year -- after a stronger 3 yr downward trend than wbb -- the top 2 asst football coaches received raises totaling more than KBA's this year. So without any knowledge of the actual contracts in place, we do know that they've spent at least as much in fb coaching salary increases for her level of performance (or worse).
.



I don't understand your point. The head football coach got fired by Michigan. Most assistants got fired. Football teams nearly always retain one or two assistants for recruiting continuity. And Greg Mattison is a key recruiter, is old and well regarded, having made the rounds in pros and college FB for 30 years, and he got demo.ited from defensive coordinator to defensive line coach. And all Mich FB assts now make more because higher pay for assistant coaches was one of Harbugh's demands in order to take the job.

The ony relevant point is that head FB coaches with records like the WBB coach lose their job. The last two got fired after 3 and 4 years, the latest one with a 31-20 record. There's an obvious double standard. WBB players deserve the same level of expectations and coaching performance as male athletes. Why should anyone expect or accept less for the women?


Let's not forget the head football coach was fired in part after sending a clearly concussed player back out on the field.

http://www.npr.org/2014/10/03/353424606/michigan-football-apologizes-for-letting-qb-with-a-concussion-play


That wasn't the least little bit why he got fired. He got fired for going 5-7 including being shutout 31-0 by Notre Dame.

If he was winning, he wouldn't have been fired for the concussion. It was just used by people who already wanted him replaced. Nor does it explain the previous coach geting fired in 3 years.

I would expect people on this board, of all places, to be intollerant of such obvious double standards and to demand that WBB players be treated with more respect and attention by their school administrations. Instead I never cease to be amazed how obvious examples are always met with nothing but endless excuses. Why do people feel compelled to defend underperforming coaches just because they're women? There won't be equal treatment until you expect and demand equal performance.

If the WBB fans on this board don't take WBB seriously and demand excellence, why you ever expect ADs and school presidents to do so?


It must be quite the cross to bear, being sanctimonious and holier than thou all the time Art. Sorry, but, the concussion was an issue that compounded the losses and made them inexcusable:


"Outside of the losing, the main flashpoint with most fans with regards to Hoke was the Morris injury. Late in the Minnesota loss, Morris suffered a shot to the head while already hobbling on an injured ankle. Michigan kept the woozy sophomore in for another play, took him out, and then sent him back onto the field several plays later. Fans howled, ABC's commentators expressed concern, and our Michigan site called for Hoke's termination. Former athletic director Dave Brandon was supportive of Hoke, but after Brandon resigned on Halloween, Hoke's last visible supporter was gone and the writing was on the wall."


and another column:

Hoke's firing was much less of a surprise. In addition to the disappointing results, Michigan has been embroiled in numerous controversies this season. During the week leading up to the Rutgers game, Hoke was caught in a firestorm over the handling of injured quarterback Shane Morris in the previous game. There was also the arrest of defensive end Frank Clark on domestic violence charges last month and the resignation of athletic director Dave Brandon on Oct. 31.

Let me ask, how many coaches have beaten UConn at Storrs? From a s mall private institution in New York?

That buys Kim street cred to build a team in the Big 10 right there.

Not every school can have an Auriemma or McGraw.

On another point, people that are interested in the Big 10 started this thread to enjoy discussing their conference. Why come in here and piss on their cornflakes in the first place? What did you hope to accomplish. Your first post in this thread included calling the conference mediocre, and rolling your eyes over KBA's extension. You have brought absolutely nothing positive to the discussion.

Just more criticize, criticize, criticize.

I wanted to read what was going on in the conference in this thread, not what you don't like about Kim Barnes-Arico getting an extension..


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Typical. You don't like the point, so attack the poster.

BTW Hoke was on his way out before the concussion ever happened. Here's just a couple examples. As one said right before that game "They play at Rutgers on Saturday; a loss in that one almost certainly would seal Hoke's fate. " Yeah, they lost. The concussion wss no more than icing on the cake. You're simply wrong in your zeal to attack me.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000403025/article/michigans-brady-hoke-atop-hotseat-coaches-list

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/eye-on-college-football/24718569/brady-hokes-seat-is-hotter-than-ever-in-ann-arbor

You're right on one thing. Not every WBB team can have Auriemma or Summit, just as not every FB team can have Saban or Meyer. But EVERY team should truly strive to get there. Just as Michigan did in pulling out all the stops to hire Jim Harbaugh to replace Hoke. No mediocrity accepted. He's made them a factor again in just one year. They should apply the identical standards and make the same effort to achieve excellence for their WBB team. The women deserve no less.


Queenie



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18013
Location: Queens


Back to top
PostPosted: 10/13/15 7:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I have desperately tried to stay out of this thread, because my personal feelings were leading me to say things that are inappropriate in any circumstance, and certainly not befitting someone who wears a mod hat (no matter how ill-fitting I sometimes wonder it is).

That being said, some roll-slowing needs to be done and some steps back need to be taken before unfortunate things happen.

Right now, I would say that KBA is following the same track she followed at St. John's: one surprisingly good year fairly early, built unsustainably (on transfers at St. John's, on developing Borseth players at UM), followed by a few rough years as she brings in her players and installs her system. If that's the case, then the turnaround starts this year, next at the latest, and then things will get fun. (I have the avatar and the 2012 Sweet Sixteen replica banner to prove THAT.)

I think it's also worth considering that KBA is *very* good at grass-roots marketing and spurring student and local support. She's not necessarily a booster-schmoozer, but she'll get people out to games, she'll bring in fans, she'll get the arena loud, she'll get the students involved.

I will admit my biases thusly: as a STJ season ticket holder, our chosen perch was a row or two in front of the Aricos. We've shared Starbursts with KBA's daughters and tactical thought with her son. I wear Joy McCorvey's jersey; we invited Megan Duffy to our wedding. (She was out recruiting. She got the kid. Then the kid transferred. But anyway.)

As fond as I am of the UM staff as a result of this, this also means I have watched KBA rebuild a program that was actual-facts shit. I have seen the unexpected success from the STJ assigned seating at the Bryce Jordan Center as we beat Cal in the 2006 tourney, and I have seen the rough years after the transfers graduated and we could not beat bad teams, and I have seen the coming of the draft picks, and I had CPTV on the night Shenneika Smith hit that three.

So take my post with a grain of salt if you want. But also consider the distinct possibility that I know what I'm talking about.



_________________
All your Rebecca are belong to the Liberty.

(now with spelling variations)
22



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Posts: 102



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/14/15 6:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Howee wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Look at a thorougly mediocre 16 year career record including three years of steadily declining performance at Michigan and simply declare it a "proven track record of quality" as if such a declaration makes it true.


Again. "mediocre"? I'd give ya that, IFF she was only/ever coaching against the Arkansas-Pine Bluffs/Northern Arizonas of the NCAA. She banged it around with the UConn/Notre Dame/Rutgers/DePaul set. (And she beat Geno once!) Now, she's still in a power conference, where "middle" ain't all that bad.

And, again: who do you replace her with? That's a rough & unproductive carousel to jump on. Let the woman prove herself after 5-7 years.

AND: Recruiting is everything. It's not like she's been able to jump in and get All The Best in 3 years. Yes, "our sport" may benefit from a higher expectation, but I still say, Accentuate/Affirm the positive, and you just might create it.


As I said, I'm not proposing replacing her now. I'd give her two more years to turn things positive. But I wouldn't be giving her a raise or extension. I don't see how three declining years warrants a raise and extension.


You've still neglected to address the contextual and practical problems with your ideological double standard.... And I imagine Amaker must've gotten at least one extension - again, with worse results than KBA.

And there are plenty of men's coaches who get extensions and/or raises only to get fired within a few years - so KBA still has plenty of time to be held to the same standard. Maybe they thought having an extension in place would help with recruiting. Maybe the actual amount of the raises has less negative impact on the overall budget than it helps balance (at least the perception) the increased spending on the new fb coaches.

And haven't there been plenty of overpaid men's coaches whose inflated salaries (even if they don't get kept around forever) are used to justify 'what the market bears' for other coaches?

It would seem to make sense that as the absolute dollar amounts get higher (and the big fb programs even more visible), the coaches with the highest salaries get the most scrutiny and the quickest hook. And I'm quite sure that overall, vastly more money has still been wasted on underperformance by men's coaches than women's.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 10/14/15 8:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

22 wrote:
[
You've still neglected to address the contextual and practical problems with your ideological double standard.... And I imagine Amaker must've gotten at least one extension - again, with worse results than KBA.
.


We can have different opinions, but let's at least get the facts right. Amaker took over a team in total disarray and facing NCAA sanctions over the Ed Martin payoff scandal. They were placed on NCAA probation for his first five years and were banned from postseason play his first two, but he won the NIT in year three. He cleaned up a mess and turned around a disaster under extremely difficult circumstances. His trajectory was up, not down. And he wasn't awarded an extension. Instead, recognizing the impact of sanctions, his original contract provided that if the basketball program was placed on probation by the NCAA for violations that occurred prior to his arrival, the contract was automatically extended one-year for each year of probation. He was fired after 6 years, before that original contract expired, because the improvement stalled with a couple of years of 22 wins but only 8-8 in conf. .500 in conf got him fired.


Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin