RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

Better recruiter: Goestenkors or McCallie?
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  

Who has been the better recruiter as a coach?
Gail Goestenkors
60%
 60%  [ 12 ]
Joanne P. McCallie
40%
 40%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 20

Author Message
ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11105



Back to top
PostPosted: 07/02/15 9:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If I were McCallie, I'd try to do some heavy editing in the media guide ...



_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15691
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/02/15 7:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
If I were McCallie, I'd try to do some heavy editing in the media guide ...


Laughing Laughing Laughing



_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7355
Location: Durham, NC


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/02/15 9:53 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

willtalk wrote:
NoDakSt wrote:

---------------- I think PMac has done a great job at getting students to Duke and this has been done even with extensive changes in her coaching staff. Not certain what the draw but it gets
Good kids initially in the door.


Out side of the University itself, I am speculating that the draw might possibly be the scheme, which ironically is one of the reasons that some fans dislike about McCalleys coaching. Every thing has a plus and a negative side. Some players might be drawn to scheme that tries to promote ball movement where most players get to touch the ball rather than running purely set plays that involve fewer players. In this type of system they know they will usually get their touches and won't be frozen out of the offense. This type of system tends to allow a team to keep more talented players happy. Now the effectiveness of this system is a entirely different subject.


This makes no sense. Ball movement is one of the worst aspects of JPM offense. Players come to Duke and stay at Duke to get the Duke degree. Except for the players who quickly decide it's just not worth it and go for the "do-over" elsewhere.



_________________
Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.

~rAf
Durantula



Joined: 30 Mar 2013
Posts: 5221



Back to top
PostPosted: 07/03/15 6:52 am    ::: Re: Whos who Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
Durantula wrote:
readyAIMfire53 wrote:
Nixtreefan wrote:
I would have to say McCallie and I don't know why she has had the recruits she has had, its quite the conundrum.


Highest ranked recruits: McCallie

Best at recruiting to a system: Coach G


That may be specific to Duke, but Coach G wasn't good at recruiting to a system at Texas. And I don't think McCallie was pulling in top recruits at Albany where she won multiple conference titles or Michigan State. Both of them have built teams in different ways through their other jobs which is interesting.


McCallie never coached at Albany.


Sorry, meant to say Maine. When you combine all coaching stops, I just think McCallie's work is more impressive. It is really hard to win at Maine. I mean how many D1 prospects a year come out of Maine? Michigan State has not been that great since McCallie left either. Yes, Duke has not been as good without Coach G but she herself wasn't good at her next stop either. Even if McCallie does not reach Coach G's records at Duke, her winning percentage overall is really good and hard to fault.

People say McCallie only recruits well because of Duke's academics, but she recruited well enough to win many games at Maine and Michigan State, and those schools are much harder to recruit to than Duke.


summertime blues



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7746
Location: Shenandoah Valley


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/03/15 8:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

What good is recruiting if your best players don't develop, or leave and go somewhere else? I don't recall Coach G having that many transfers, or so many assistants leaving either, which is another thing entirely.



_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
NoDakSt



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929



Back to top
PostPosted: 07/03/15 11:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
What good is recruiting if your best players don't develop, or leave and go somewhere else? I don't recall Coach G having that many transfers, or so many assistants leaving either, which is another thing entirely.


GG had some pretty high profile transfers, especially after the run to the National game in 1999. Of course, Duke also had a considerable upgrade in recruiting luck and I believe part of the transfer scenario were players coming in and suddenly realizing that the competition was getting tougher and playing time would be scarce.

Some GG-era transfers that I recall are:

Crystal White - LSU
Rometra Craig- Souther Cal
(these two came in the class with Beard, Tillis and Krapohl)

Brooke Smith - Stanford
(came in the class with Harding, Foley, Howe, and Bass)

Brittany Hunter - UCONN
(came in with Bales)

Laura Kurz - Villanova
(came in with E. Waner, W.Smith, C. Black)

Brittany Mitch - DII
(came in with A. Waner, Gay, Jackson)

rAf may recall others, this is off the top of my head. Some of these were high profile recruits.


readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7355
Location: Durham, NC


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/03/15 4:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NoDakSt wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
What good is recruiting if your best players don't develop, or leave and go somewhere else? I don't recall Coach G having that many transfers, or so many assistants leaving either, which is another thing entirely.


GG had some pretty high profile transfers, especially after the run to the National game in 1999. Of course, Duke also had a considerable upgrade in recruiting luck and I believe part of the transfer scenario were players coming in and suddenly realizing that the competition was getting tougher and playing time would be scarce.

Some GG-era transfers that I recall are:

Crystal White - LSU
Rometra Craig- Souther Cal
(these two came in the class with Beard, Tillis and Krapohl)

Brooke Smith - Stanford
(came in the class with Harding, Foley, Howe, and Bass)

Brittany Hunter - UCONN
(came in with Bales)

Laura Kurz - Villanova
(came in with E. Waner, W.Smith, C. Black)

Brittany Mitch - DII
(came in with A. Waner, Gay, Jackson)

rAf may recall others, this is off the top of my head. Some of these were high profile recruits.


Brittany Mitch stopped playing for Duke while JPM was coaching but did not transfer. She graduated from Duke in 3 years and played her 4th year of eligibility while in grad school.

Basically, your summation of why players transferred under Coach G is accurate.
Rometra Craig left soon after Mo Currie arrived.
Crystal White left due to her friendship with Rometra Craig.
Brooke Smith could not compete with Mistie Bass for playing time.
Brittany Hunter had always wanted to go to UConn and did not rehab following an injury so would not be playing at Duke the next year anyway.
Laura Kurz grew 2 inches between her frosh and soph years, making her 6'5 but it didn't make her want to play in the post.

There were a few other transfers or decision to leave the team. They more or less fit the pattern that they couldn't compete for playing time at Duke.



_________________
Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.

~rAf
Durantula



Joined: 30 Mar 2013
Posts: 5221



Back to top
PostPosted: 07/03/15 5:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
What good is recruiting if your best players don't develop, or leave and go somewhere else? I don't recall Coach G having that many transfers, or so many assistants leaving either, which is another thing entirely.


The transfer culture now vs. when Coach G was at Duke is completely different, its not even worth comparing transfers now vs. 5-10 years ago. On the mens side there are 700+ transfers this year. On the women's side no one keeps an accurate list but I would think it keeps going up.


Nixtreefan



Joined: 14 Nov 2012
Posts: 2539



Back to top
PostPosted: 07/04/15 10:27 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Life must be tough for these coaches, they only rake in 6 figures, they only get fifteen decent ball players, why would you expect them to be successful Wink


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/06/15 2:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
If I were McCallie, I'd try to do some heavy editing in the media guide ...


The statistics are not listed in the format I presented. I had to calculate it based on the annual record each year, with the opposing team's ranking listed along with the game scores.


PRballer



Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 2535



Back to top
PostPosted: 07/07/15 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
ClayK wrote:
If I were McCallie, I'd try to do some heavy editing in the media guide ...


The statistics are not listed in the format I presented. I had to calculate it based on the annual record each year, with the opposing team's ranking listed along with the game scores.


Illuminating research, thanks! Curious why folks even debate on who the better coach for Duke is (or even recruiter). The product on the floor and the (lack of) butts in the seats says it all.

To think what the Ogwumikes and Tayler Hill could have accomplished with that '14 class under GG. Yikes.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8152
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/07/15 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I honestly did not post this poll to continue the acrimonious debate among Duke fans regarding the game coaching success of GG vs. P at Duke. Personally, I'd concede to Cam's facts on this issue (while wondering how well GG did in her first seven years at Duke.)

I was more interested, as the OP states, in opinions regarding their relative recruiting success over their entire careers. A couple of things interest me in that regard.

For example, how much does Duke University recruit "itself"? That can be tested by how GG and P have recruited at schools other than Duke.

Second, how can P be such a consistently effective recruiter, at school after school, if she has the bitchy-witchy personality attributed to her by some fans -- the alleged harridan who drives away assistant coaches and causes players to transfer? P consistently recruited well at Maine, for that level of school, and surely surprised everyone by getting Michigan State to the NC game in 2005 with a team of no-name players and non-AA's.
ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11105



Back to top
PostPosted: 07/07/15 3:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I honestly did not post this poll to continue the acrimonious debate among Duke fans regarding the game coaching success of GG vs. P at Duke. Personally, I'd concede to Cam's facts on this issue (while wondering how well GG did in her first seven years at Duke.)

I was more interested, as the OP states, in opinions regarding their relative recruiting success over their entire careers. A couple of things interest me in that regard.

For example, how much does Duke University recruit "itself"? That can be tested by how GG and P have recruited at schools other than Duke.

Second, how can P be such a consistently effective recruiter, at school after school, if she has the bitchy-witchy personality attributed to her by some fans -- the alleged harridan who drives away assistant coaches and causes players to transfer? P consistently recruited well at Maine, for that level of school, and surely surprised everyone by getting Michigan State to the NC game in 2005 with a team of no-name players and non-AA's.


It's hard to understand, because even if you're a complete charmer at home visits -- which apparently she is -- the campus visits and existing players generally give a bigger overall picture.



_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
summertime blues



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7746
Location: Shenandoah Valley


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/07/15 5:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Is it not beyond the realm of possibility that her (possibly ego-driven) personality (possibly personality disorder) has gotten worse as she's gotten older? And that she feels perhaps more INsecure at Duke than she did in previous posts because Duke is a more visible venue, and thus is nastier......and less effective as a result also?



_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/07/15 7:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I honestly did not post this poll to continue the acrimonious debate among Duke fans regarding the game coaching success of GG vs. P at Duke. Personally, I'd concede to Cam's facts on this issue (while wondering how well GG did in her first seven years at Duke.)

I was more interested, as the OP states, in opinions regarding their relative recruiting success over their entire careers. A couple of things interest me in that regard.

For example, how much does Duke University recruit "itself"? That can be tested by how GG and P have recruited at schools other than Duke.

Second, how can P be such a consistently effective recruiter, at school after school, if she has the bitchy-witchy personality attributed to her by some fans -- the alleged harridan who drives away assistant coaches and causes players to transfer? P consistently recruited well at Maine, for that level of school, and surely surprised everyone by getting Michigan State to the NC game in 2005 with a team of no-name players and non-AA's.


First, Duke was in the ACC cellar before Goestenkors arrived. She built the program to a point where it recruits itself.
McCallie's eight years, she has more second round losses (two) than Final
Second, the record in the first seven years would not be nearly as good, as she was trying to build a program from the ground up. But in Goestenkors' sixth year, she made the Elite Eight, and in her seventh year, she made the Final Four.

So Gail made the Final Four in her seventh year taking over a program that was in the ACC basement when she arrived (in a strong league, mind you, as Virginia, UNC, and NC State all had Final Four appearances in the early to mid-1990s). McCallie took over a Duke program that went undefeated in the regular season the year before she arrived and one year removed from a Final Four - and with a roster of eight high school All-Americans. In Four appearances (zero). And even building the program from the cellar, Goestenkors reached the Final Four and the NCAA title game in less time than McCallie.

As an aside, Gail had a better record at Texas than her predecessor did in her final two years. She made the NCAA Tournament all five years and won 20 games at last four times. But it was nothing close to what she was able to do at Duke. She also got some top recruits at Texas (Imani Stafford, Nneka Enemkpali, etc.). But again, it was nothing remotely close to what she was able to do at Duke.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/07/15 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
Is it not beyond the realm of possibility that her (possibly ego-driven) personality (possibly personality disorder) has gotten worse as she's gotten older? And that she feels perhaps more INsecure at Duke than she did in previous posts because Duke is a more visible venue, and thus is nastier......and less effective as a result also?


Perhaps she feels constantly compared to her predecessor, realizes she is not measuring up (notwithstanding the AD who hired her declaring she would be what would get Duke over the hump to win a national title), and is using the promise of a free education to lure the best possible recruits (and many of them) so her talent will simply overwhelm any coaching deficiencies?

Looking at her overall record at Duke, things look great, on paper and in a vacuum - winning 80 percent of her games, four Elite Eights in eight years, some ACC regular season and tournament titles, etc. Most schools would kill to have that kind of success.

But comparing the numbers and job performance to that of her predecessor (see my previous post in this thread) reveals that Duke has taken a major step back on the national stage and in terms of being thought of as an elite program, notwithstanding the best recruiting classes over the past 5+ years.


readyAIMfire53



Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7355
Location: Durham, NC


Back to top
PostPosted: 07/09/15 12:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
I honestly did not post this poll to continue the acrimonious debate among Duke fans regarding the game coaching success of GG vs. P at Duke. Personally, I'd concede to Cam's facts on this issue (while wondering how well GG did in her first seven years at Duke.)

I was more interested, as the OP states, in opinions regarding their relative recruiting success over their entire careers. A couple of things interest me in that regard.

For example, how much does Duke University recruit "itself"? That can be tested by how GG and P have recruited at schools other than Duke.

Second, how can P be such a consistently effective recruiter, at school after school, if she has the bitchy-witchy personality attributed to her by some fans -- the alleged harridan who drives away assistant coaches and causes players to transfer? P consistently recruited well at Maine, for that level of school, and surely surprised everyone by getting Michigan State to the NC game in 2005 with a team of no-name players and non-AA's.


Glenn, no offense, but you could really benefit from a logic class. Some fact-checking wouldn't hurt, either. McCallie OPENLY disliked recruiting. She happened to get a group from border states of Michigan that made a fluke run to the NC game. McCallie's first three recruiting classes at Duke sucked majorly. Shay Selby was officially in a JPM recruiting class but had committed to Coach G and kept the commitment. She may have decided in the end that the Duke education she got was so good it was worth the crappy coaching she got on the team. She made no secret of her feelings about the coach and served multiple suspensions from the team. She is among the hoarde of former players who will not return to Cameron Indoor Stadium. The Big Five signaled that JPM had finally "got it" w/r/t recruiting. She's been high rolling ever since - when it comes to recruiting. There is no question she recruited the best talent to Duke. The fact that all that talent led to zero Final Fours speaks for itself. Even with injuries, the Duke talent was so much higher that all schools not named UConn, the team should have made at least one FF.



_________________
Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.

~rAf
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin