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Who has been the better recruiter as a coach? |
Gail Goestenkors |
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60% |
[ 12 ] |
Joanne P. McCallie |
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40% |
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Total Votes : 20 |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8235 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 06/26/15 4:03 pm ::: Better recruiter: Goestenkors or McCallie? |
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Over their college coaching careers who has been the better recruiter?
Goestenkors career:
19861992, Asst. Purdue
19922007, Head Duke
20072012, Head Texas
McCallie career:
19881992, Asst. Auburn
19922000, Head Maine
20002007, Head Michigan State
2007present, Head Duke |
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shadowboxer
Joined: 18 Jul 2008 Posts: 2126
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Posted: 06/26/15 5:33 pm ::: |
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McCallie recruits and coaches like she is still in the Big10(?), IMO. She should have burned her Michigan St. playbook before leaving for Duke.
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Hoops9092
Joined: 04 Nov 2008 Posts: 1639
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Posted: 06/26/15 9:03 pm ::: |
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Without a doubt Gail G.
I think had she of stayed at Duke they would of been absolutely incredible in subsequent years. Somewhere I read Nneka was a heavy Duke lean until McCallie came on board, as was Tierra Ruffin Pratt.
Wasn't Bria Hartley a big time Duke recruit, until Gail left and UConn came sniffing? Taylor Hill was a Duke lean, until Gail went to Texas. Lots of talent here.
Anyways, enough what if's - I still think Gail was a much better recruiter than McCallie. Her best or at least most reputable recruits came in her final years at Duke.
She seemed to be on just about all the top 10 recruits' final 5 list as well.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11171
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Posted: 06/27/15 9:36 am ::: |
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McCallie is a great recruiter, regardless of where she is ...
Goestenkors recruited well at Duke, but couldn't make it work at Texas.
I'm not saying McCallie is a better coach for Duke than GG, but McCallie's ability to recruit is very impressive.
_________________ Oį¹ TÄre TuttÄre Ture SvÄhÄ
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16368 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 06/27/15 10:47 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
McCallie is a great recruiter, regardless of where she is ...
Goestenkors recruited well at Duke, but couldn't make it work at Texas.
I'm not saying McCallie is a better coach for Duke than GG, but McCallie's ability to recruit is very impressive. |
Thank you. There is plenty to say about McCallie, but she is a top-notch recruiter.
Gail G. was also a top recruiter at Duke, and I am hoping maybe she will be a top recruiter at Purdue in a year.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 06/27/15 11:12 am ::: |
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McCallie may be able to recruit, but she can't coach her way out of a wet paper bag, IMNSHO. Coach G. was a fearsome good coach. I don't think Purdue wants to pay her what she's worth, though...
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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bacabuck
Joined: 28 May 2009 Posts: 245
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Posted: 06/27/15 11:28 am ::: |
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McCallie sure recruits well for Ohio State! Go girl, keep it up!!
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lvf08
Joined: 11 Jun 2008 Posts: 624
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Posted: 06/27/15 11:42 am ::: |
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McCallie
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013 Posts: 5223
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Posted: 06/27/15 11:42 am ::: |
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summertime blues wrote: |
McCallie may be able to recruit, but she can't coach her way out of a wet paper bag, IMNSHO. Coach G. was a fearsome good coach. I don't think Purdue wants to pay her what she's worth, though... |
McCallie had success at Albany, Michigan State and Duke. Coach G did great at Duke but did poorly at Texas. Texas in all honesty is a prime job, great facilities, resources, education, town. To not win and recruit well at Texas is a major disappointment. Coach G was better at Duke than Coach P, but I don't know if her winning percentage was WAY better, but I think Coach P taking MSU to the national championship is way more impressive than anything Coach G did at Texas. And winning at MSU is harder than winning at UT in my opinion, MSU doesn't have the talent base to draw from like UT. If you put Coach G at an Albany or Michigan State today I don't think she would put up the records McCallie did but that's just my opinion.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16368 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 06/27/15 12:56 pm ::: |
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summertime blues wrote: |
McCallie may be able to recruit, but she can't coach her way out of a wet paper bag, IMNSHO. Coach G. was a fearsome good coach. I don't think Purdue wants to pay her what she's worth, though... |
Right now, they pay a lot for a much worse coach.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1099 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 06/27/15 3:22 pm ::: |
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This whole thread is absurd. It's not a tennis competition where the best person on a particular day wins. They were working under entirely different circumstances. It isn't just about the schools they were recruiting for but circumstances and schools they were in competition with. The coach P and coach G comparisons usually end up badly and their really is no point because it's entirely speculative.
I personally am tired of threads that are not geared to an exchange of information and perspectives that might have a reasonable hope of a rational outcome, instead of agenda driven ones that are created to stir up conflict and controversy. I left and will not post on the Duke site for that very reason. Why bring this issue to sites to be discussed by fans who are mostly entirely clueless to the Duke program in general, but rely mostly on the polarized opinions of Duke fans who promote their own personal opinions and rationalized spun facts. We might as well argue which came first the chicken or the egg.
It's bad enough that the Duke site became what it did, but why export this dysfunction to other sites.
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005 Posts: 4929
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Posted: 06/27/15 3:49 pm ::: |
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willtalk wrote: |
This whole thread is absurd. It's not a tennis competition where the best person on a particular day wins. They were working under entirely different circumstances. It isn't just about the schools they were recruiting for but circumstances and schools they were in competition with. The coach P and coach G comparisons usually end up badly and their really is no point because it's entirely speculative.
I personally am tired of threads that are not geared to an exchange of information and perspectives that might have a reasonable hope of a rational outcome, instead of agenda driven ones that are created to stir up conflict and controversy. I left and will not post on the Duke site for that very reason. Why bring this issue to sites to be discussed by fans who are mostly entirely clueless to the Duke program in general, but rely mostly on the polarized opinions of Duke fans who promote their own personal opinions and rationalized spun facts. We might as well argue which came first the chicken or the egg.
It's bad enough that the Duke site became what it did, but why export this dysfunction to other sites. |
I like this thread. Its good to have perspective from other fans not close to the program. And I think Duke is a unique perspective. I can't think of too many other coaching changes where the outgoing coach left a very successful program and to be replaced by a coach who has come in and (arguably) maintained that level of success in women's college basketball. Since we're focusing primarily on recruiting, I think both did very well but PMac is getting in some of the very good recruits whereas Gail found a few diamonds That escaped the Big Programs. staying away from player retention and development, I think PMac has done a great job at getting students to Duke and this has been done even with extensive changes in her coaching staff. Not certain what the draw but it gets
Good kids initially in the door.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012 Posts: 5424
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Posted: 06/27/15 4:40 pm ::: |
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There should be a third choice:
Duke University itself.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67013 Location: Where the action is
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Posted: 06/27/15 4:44 pm ::: |
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linkster wrote: |
There should be a third choice:
Duke University itself. |
They weren't exactly getting the cream of the crop before Goestenkors got there.
_________________ I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1099 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 06/27/15 8:29 pm ::: |
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NoDakSt wrote: |
willtalk wrote: |
This whole thread is absurd. It's not a tennis competition where the best person on a particular day wins. They were working under entirely different circumstances. It isn't just about the schools they were recruiting for but circumstances and schools they were in competition with. The coach P and coach G comparisons usually end up badly and their really is no point because it's entirely speculative.
I personally am tired of threads that are not geared to an exchange of information and perspectives that might have a reasonable hope of a rational outcome, instead of agenda driven ones that are created to stir up conflict and controversy. I left and will not post on the Duke site for that very reason. Why bring this issue to sites to be discussed by fans who are mostly entirely clueless to the Duke program in general, but rely mostly on the polarized opinions of Duke fans who promote their own personal opinions and rationalized spun facts. We might as well argue which came first the chicken or the egg.
It's bad enough that the Duke site became what it did, but why export this dysfunction to other sites. |
I like this thread. Its good to have perspective from other fans not close to the program. And I think Duke is a unique perspective. I can't think of too many other coaching changes where the outgoing coach left a very successful program and to be replaced by a coach who has come in and (arguably) maintained that level of success in women's college basketball. Since we're focusing primarily on recruiting, I think both did very well but PMac is getting in some of the very good recruits whereas Gail found a few diamonds That escaped the Big Programs. staying away from player retention and development, I think PMac has done a great job at getting students to Duke and this has been done even with extensive changes in her coaching staff. Not certain what the draw but it gets
Good kids initially in the door. |
Well perhaps I over reacted- As long as it doesn't get negative. I frankly think both coaches stepped into a situation that had a lot of built in negatives attached to them. Coach P in respect to having to follow a beloved coach- but that wouldn't influence recruiting. Now in respect to coach G it definitely did. She was going to have a hard time recruiting in Texas because she was considered an out side'r. That's the way it is in some area's and Texas is one of those area's And if you can't recruit in the Texas hotbed you are pretty much cooked. Coach G at Duke has a much larger area to draw from and Duke is a much easier sell.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1099 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 06/27/15 8:47 pm ::: |
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NoDakSt wrote: |
---------------- I think PMac has done a great job at getting students to Duke and this has been done even with extensive changes in her coaching staff. Not certain what the draw but it gets
Good kids initially in the door. |
Out side of the University itself, I am speculating that the draw might possibly be the scheme, which ironically is one of the reasons that some fans dislike about McCalleys coaching. Every thing has a plus and a negative side. Some players might be drawn to scheme that tries to promote ball movement where most players get to touch the ball rather than running purely set plays that involve fewer players. In this type of system they know they will usually get their touches and won't be frozen out of the offense. This type of system tends to allow a team to keep more talented players happy. Now the effectiveness of this system is a entirely different subject.
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willtalk
Joined: 13 Apr 2012 Posts: 1099 Location: NorCal
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Posted: 06/27/15 8:52 pm ::: |
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pilight wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
There should be a third choice:
Duke University itself. |
They weren't exactly getting the cream of the crop before Goestenkors got there. |
And for that she deserves a lot of credit. A successful program builds on itself. Once a program has some success it will attract better quality players.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15753 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 06/27/15 11:30 pm ::: |
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There's no doubt that some of the *glories* that Duke earned under GG may have attracted some of Coach P's (earliest) recruits, too.
It's kind of tough to really give the comparison much validity, given the different histories, etc., but I DO think it's fair to say this: AT Duke, GG accomplished FARfar more with fewer....*lustrous* recruits than Coach P has while she's been at Duke. McCallie may actually have more highly-touted players pouring in, but has done LESS with them than GG had done with her Duke teams.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"InƩvitablement, les canards voleront"
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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Posted: 06/28/15 9:45 am ::: Whos who |
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I would have to say McCallie and I don't know why she has had the recruits she has had, its quite the conundrum.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7403 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 06/28/15 9:02 pm ::: Re: Whos who |
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Nixtreefan wrote: |
I would have to say McCallie and I don't know why she has had the recruits she has had, its quite the conundrum. |
Highest ranked recruits: McCallie
Best at recruiting to a system: Coach G
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013 Posts: 5223
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Posted: 06/28/15 9:32 pm ::: Re: Whos who |
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readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Nixtreefan wrote: |
I would have to say McCallie and I don't know why she has had the recruits she has had, its quite the conundrum. |
Highest ranked recruits: McCallie
Best at recruiting to a system: Coach G |
That may be specific to Duke, but Coach G wasn't good at recruiting to a system at Texas. And I don't think McCallie was pulling in top recruits at Albany where she won multiple conference titles or Michigan State. Both of them have built teams in different ways through their other jobs which is interesting.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004 Posts: 7403 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: 06/28/15 9:49 pm ::: Re: Whos who |
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Durantula wrote: |
readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Nixtreefan wrote: |
I would have to say McCallie and I don't know why she has had the recruits she has had, its quite the conundrum. |
Highest ranked recruits: McCallie
Best at recruiting to a system: Coach G |
That may be specific to Duke, but Coach G wasn't good at recruiting to a system at Texas. And I don't think McCallie was pulling in top recruits at Albany where she won multiple conference titles or Michigan State. Both of them have built teams in different ways through their other jobs which is interesting. |
Coach G couldn't get anything going at Texas. Period. Sometimes it just doesn't work to move to a completely different kind of school in a different part of the country. Texas is just really special.
_________________ Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 2819 Location: Indiana
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Posted: 06/29/15 8:27 am ::: Re: Whos who |
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Durantula wrote: |
readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Nixtreefan wrote: |
I would have to say McCallie and I don't know why she has had the recruits she has had, its quite the conundrum. |
Highest ranked recruits: McCallie
Best at recruiting to a system: Coach G |
That may be specific to Duke, but Coach G wasn't good at recruiting to a system at Texas. And I don't think McCallie was pulling in top recruits at Albany where she won multiple conference titles or Michigan State. Both of them have built teams in different ways through their other jobs which is interesting. |
McCallie never coached at Albany.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18371 Location: Phoenix
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Posted: 07/01/15 9:22 pm ::: |
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Durantula wrote: |
Coach G was better at Duke than Coach P, but I don't know if her winning percentage was WAY better. |
Comparing Gail Goestenkors' last seven years at Duke with McCallie's eight years at Duke produces the following (information from pages 162-163 of the Media Guide:
Overall record:
Goestenkors: 220-25 (89.79 percent)
McCallie: 225-53 (80.94 percent)
ACC record:
Goestenkors: 98-8 (92.45 percent)
McCallie: 100-22 (81.97 percent)
NCAA record:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 18-8 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, six years at least making the Sweet 16, two second round losses)
Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 14-14 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 7-26 (21.21 percent)
Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 25-14 (64.10 percent)
McCallie: 19-32 (37.25 percent)
Against Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 60-20 (80.00 percent)
McCallie: 58-43 (57.43 percent)
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15753 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 07/01/15 9:30 pm ::: |
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CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
Durantula wrote: |
Coach G was better at Duke than Coach P, but I don't know if her winning percentage was WAY better. |
Comparing Gail Goestenkors' last seven years at Duke with McCallie's eight years at Duke produces the following (information from pages 162-163 of the Media Guide:
Overall record:
Goestenkors: 220-25 (89.79 percent)
McCallie: 225-53 (80.94 percent)
ACC record:
Goestenkors: 98-8 (92.45 percent)
McCallie: 100-22 (81.97 percent)
NCAA record:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 18-8 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, six years at least making the Sweet 16, two second round losses)
Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 14-14 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 7-26 (21.21 percent)
Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 25-14 (64.10 percent)
McCallie: 19-32 (37.25 percent)
Against Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 60-20 (80.00 percent)
McCallie: 58-43 (57.43 percent) |
Hmm. I'd call those percentages IMPRESSIVELY better. Especially in light of the fact that McCallie has had more highly-touted recruits than GG.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"InƩvitablement, les canards voleront"
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