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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
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 Posted: 05/22/15 5:01 pm ::: |
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| lvf08 wrote: |
UNC receives notice of allegations
| Quote: |
Chancellor Carol L. Folt and AD Bubba Cunningham released this statement:
"We take these allegations very seriously, and we will carefully evaluate them to respond within the NCAA's 90-day deadline. The University will publicly release the NCAA's notice as soon as possible. The notice is lengthy and must be prepared for public dissemination to ensure we protect privacy rights as required by federal and state law. When that review for redactions is complete, the University will post the notice on the Carolina Commitment website and notify the news media. |
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25192884/unc-receives-notice-of-allegations |
Is it just the men's basketball and football teams that are at risk for sanctions, or is the women's basketball team at risk? The women's team has recruited very well even in the face of potential UNC allegations with two of the top guards in the south going there next year, Destinee Walker and Stephanie Watts.
On the other hand, UNC men's team has struggled to recruit in the face of potential sanctions.
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/recruiting/basketball/mens/story/_/id/12873880/north-carolina-tar-heels-ability-land-high-level-recruits-hindered-ongoing-academic-investigation
This is another quote from Roy Williams. Has Sylvia commented?
On the UNC academic scandal and NCAA investigation. Williams says he hasn�t signed some top recruits the past couple of years because players fear the school will be put on probation:
�It would help if the NCAA would just tell us what the allegations are. That would help because it would give us the information. It�s been a hard process, and I know that has been quite a lot of negative recruiting going on and other things that don�t make you very happy.
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lvf08
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 06/04/15 12:57 pm ::: |
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| This has the NCAA's 59 page letter include.
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lvf08
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Durantula
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| Posted: 06/04/15 4:22 pm ::: |
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Hatchell has always run her program with integrity but the report that has come out seems to indicate years of NCAA violations.
She must be one of the greatest recruiters ever. She has a great recruiting class while Roy Williams even said he had trouble recruiting this year because of the pending NOA. Hatchell has two McDonald's All Americans and a kid from Team Canada while Roy had to get like two fringe top 100 players.
The question to me is whether those kids will enroll in summer school or ask out of their letter of intent. Its pretty clear something bad will happen, i.e. post season ban, potential coaching staff changes. If those kids are already enrolled at UNC for summer school then they are lucky. But really I want to know how they were able to sign such great talent with all of this impending NCAA issues. Miami football struggled, USC football struggled, UNC basketball struggled but UNC women's basketball has recruited well through this.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: 06/04/15 6:44 pm ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
Hatchell has always run her program with integrity but the report that has come out seems to indicate years of NCAA violations.
She must be one of the greatest recruiters ever. She has a great recruiting class while Roy Williams even said he had trouble recruiting this year because of the pending NOA. Hatchell has two McDonald's All Americans and a kid from Team Canada while Roy had to get like two fringe top 100 players.
The question to me is whether those kids will enroll in summer school or ask out of their letter of intent. Its pretty clear something bad will happen, i.e. post season ban, potential coaching staff changes. If those kids are already enrolled at UNC for summer school then they are lucky. But really I want to know how they were able to sign such great talent with all of this impending NCAA issues. Miami football struggled, USC football struggled, UNC basketball struggled but UNC women's basketball has recruited well through this. |
I don't think USC football struggled with recruiting, but their football team certainly suffered because of the lack of scholarship players. But amazingly, they were still able to sign excellent players (albeit in smaller classes), so it seems like a different situation than the one Roy Williams is facing at UNC. But I certainly agree with your point in general.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/04/15 8:27 pm ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
| Hatchell has always run her program with integrity but the report that has come out seems to indicate years of NCAA violations. |
You might want to look at pages 3-5 and 7-8 of the letter from the NCAA. There's more, too (there are 61 mentions of "women's basketball"), but I stopped there. The women's basketball program is pretty deeply implicated.
It's possible Hatchell didn't know, but it doesn't look good whether or not she did.
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Durantula
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| Posted: 06/04/15 8:50 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
| Hatchell has always run her program with integrity but the report that has come out seems to indicate years of NCAA violations. |
You might want to look at pages 3-5 and 7-8 of the letter from the NCAA. There's more, too (there are 61 mentions of "women's basketball"), but I stopped there. The women's basketball program is pretty deeply implicated.
It's possible Hatchell didn't know, but it doesn't look good whether or not she did. |
I wasn't opining there, I was just saying what Hatchell said and I think its funny. i find it ironic given that there is so much women's basketball stuff in these allegations but she says she has always run her program with integrity. I mean they were trying to get students passed in classes with a D so they had to put them in some sketchy African American studies course?
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/04/15 10:19 pm ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
| Hatchell has always run her program with integrity but the report that has come out seems to indicate years of NCAA violations. |
You might want to look at pages 3-5 and 7-8 of the letter from the NCAA. There's more, too (there are 61 mentions of "women's basketball"), but I stopped there. The women's basketball program is pretty deeply implicated.
It's possible Hatchell didn't know, but it doesn't look good whether or not she did. |
I wasn't opining there, I was just saying what Hatchell said and I think its funny. i find it ironic given that there is so much women's basketball stuff in these allegations but she says she has always run her program with integrity. I mean they were trying to get students passed in classes with a D so they had to put them in some sketchy African American studies course? |
More proof we need a sarcasm tag.
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Happycappie25
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
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| Posted: 06/04/15 11:18 pm ::: |
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The letter shows that WBB was clearly a party to this...if not more. The fact that a WBB manager at the time was cited by name for not cooperating is not a good sign
I have a feeling that WBB will get the brunt of this, either self imposed or NCAA imposed to try to take the heat off of MBB...and in this case this may not be unjustified, wouldn't say they led the way but certainly were a party.
The question is does hatchell survive this...im not so sure But stranger things have happened...stay tuned is all i can say now
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 06/05/15 9:51 am ::: |
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I'm sure UNC is not alone in this kind of thing, but the blatant nature of these violations is pretty amazing. I mean, couldn't they have done a better job of at least making it look like they were semi-serious about academics?
We'll see how much juice UNC has, and by extension, the Power 5 conferences, because it sure looks like the hammer should fall very hard. If UNC can muster some behind-the-scenes support, maybe they'll duck what they deserve, or, more likely, other Power 5 schools are doing the same thing and will essentially say to the NCAA, "If you crush UNC with this, we know it could just as easily happen to us, so we're leaving."
Regardless, it's the usual ugly but inevitable consequence of a long history of cynical hypocrisy, regardless of organization. Sooner or later, you have to own up to what you really are ...
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/05/15 2:23 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I'm sure UNC is not alone in this kind of thing, but the blatant nature of these violations is pretty amazing. I mean, couldn't they have done a better job of at least making it look like they were semi-serious about academics?
We'll see how much juice UNC has, and by extension, the Power 5 conferences, because it sure looks like the hammer should fall very hard. If UNC can muster some behind-the-scenes support, maybe they'll duck what they deserve, or, more likely, other Power 5 schools are doing the same thing and will essentially say to the NCAA, "If you crush UNC with this, we know it could just as easily happen to us, so we're leaving."
Regardless, it's the usual ugly but inevitable consequence of a long history of cynical hypocrisy, regardless of organization. Sooner or later, you have to own up to what you really are ... |
I think they are pretty much alone in this. We're not talking jocks taking Ballroom Dancing classes here, or Johnny Football taking all of his courses online and never visiting campus except for football practice. The sheer scale of this UNC scandal and having an entire department full of completely ficticious classes is truly unprecedented and sets this well apart from the "commonplace." I think they truly are alone in this.
Some coaches should get the boot, but perhaps more importantly, the President and Deans under whose watches this occurred should be shown the door. This is far more of an academic scandal than an athletics one.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/05/15 2:38 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I'm sure UNC is not alone in this kind of thing, but the blatant nature of these violations is pretty amazing. I mean, couldn't they have done a better job of at least making it look like they were semi-serious about academics?
We'll see how much juice UNC has, and by extension, the Power 5 conferences, because it sure looks like the hammer should fall very hard. If UNC can muster some behind-the-scenes support, maybe they'll duck what they deserve, or, more likely, other Power 5 schools are doing the same thing and will essentially say to the NCAA, "If you crush UNC with this, we know it could just as easily happen to us, so we're leaving."
Regardless, it's the usual ugly but inevitable consequence of a long history of cynical hypocrisy, regardless of organization. Sooner or later, you have to own up to what you really are ... |
I think they are pretty much alone in this. We're not talking jocks taking Ballroom Dancing classes here, or Johnny Football taking all of his courses online and never visiting campus except for football practice. The sheer scale of this UNC scandal and having an entire department full of completely ficticious classes is truly unprecedented and sets this well apart from the "commonplace." I think they truly are alone in this.
Some coaches should get the boot, but perhaps more importantly, the President and Deans under whose watches this occurred should be shown the door. This is far more of an academic scandal than an athletics one. |
Frankly, UNC's accreditation should at risk. Accrediting boards have no real teeth, so I am sure nothing will happen, but it should.
Athletically, I wonder if Hatchell becomes the sacrificial lamb. She is relatively close to retirement and hasn't been as successful in the recent years. Couple that with the WBB program being singled out in the report and the NCAA likely wanting some fresh sacrifice.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/05/15 3:02 pm ::: |
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It's not realistic to yank a major university's accreditation because of the impact on the degrees of graduates and students, ongoing research, research grants, etc. I expect they'll be placed on probation and will have a list of steps they will be required to take to get off probation.
I'm curious whether they can or will revoke the degrees of any students. Does that ever happen?
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
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| Posted: 06/05/15 9:54 pm ::: |
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| Who is less likely to be coaching during the 2015-2016 season, Sylvia Hatchell or Matt Bollant? Or is it just too late for either team to do anything regarding coaching changes?
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/05/15 11:05 pm ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
| Who is less likely to be coaching during the 2015-2016 season, Sylvia Hatchell or Matt Bollant? Or is it just too late for either team to do anything regarding coaching changes? |
My first question is whether you think what Hatchell does *is* coaching.
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Durantula
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| Posted: 06/06/15 6:21 am ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
| Who is less likely to be coaching during the 2015-2016 season, Sylvia Hatchell or Matt Bollant? Or is it just too late for either team to do anything regarding coaching changes? |
My first question is whether you think what Hatchell does *is* coaching. |
Well given her track record as a Hall of Famer and national championship winning coach, maybe more coaches should do what she does? I don't get why you don't see what she does as coaching. Why is she any different than C Viv?
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/06/15 7:06 am ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
| Who is less likely to be coaching during the 2015-2016 season, Sylvia Hatchell or Matt Bollant? Or is it just too late for either team to do anything regarding coaching changes? |
My first question is whether you think what Hatchell does *is* coaching. |
Well given her track record as a Hall of Famer and national championship winning coach, maybe more coaches should do what she does? I don't get why you don't see what she does as coaching. Why is she any different than C Viv? |
First, of course it was a joke, but when you watch Hatchell's teams, the lack of discipline does sometimes make you wonder whether she just rolls the ball out on the court during practice and tells them to have at it. Whatever you think of CVS, you know from watching the team that isn't the case.
And, of course, Hatchell is a great recruiter, which is as important to success on the court as anything else.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/06/15 7:49 am ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
| Who is less likely to be coaching during the 2015-2016 season, Sylvia Hatchell or Matt Bollant? Or is it just too late for either team to do anything regarding coaching changes? |
My first question is whether you think what Hatchell does *is* coaching. |
Well given her track record as a Hall of Famer and national championship winning coach, maybe more coaches should do what she does? I don't get why you don't see what she does as coaching. Why is she any different than C Viv? |
First, of course it was a joke, but when you watch Hatchell's teams, the lack of discipline does sometimes make you wonder whether she just rolls the ball out on the court during practice and tells them to have at it. Whatever you think of CVS, you know from watching the team that isn't the case.
And, of course, Hatchell is a great recruiter, which is as important to success on the court as anything else. |
And that is of course ignoring the point of this thread which is that they've been major cheats for many years.
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LadyLionsFan
Joined: 25 May 2015
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| Posted: 06/06/15 9:54 am ::: |
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What has gone on evidently at the University of North Carolina for the past 18 years is so heinously wrong on so many different levels that the NCAA should throw the book at the school itself (lack of institutional control (CLEARLY)), the football program, the men's basketball program and if involved (believe they were) also the women's program.
The NCAA has once again failed miserably to enforce their own rules and by laws concerning such matters. They still have a chance even though it is way too late to do the poor student/athletes that got cheated out of a real education and a degree worth anything, the NCAA can still do the right thing and severly punish the school and said athletic programs. IMHO, anything short of the following and the NCAA will be guilty of not upholding their own rules, regulations, bylaws and standards for student/athletes.
1. A four year bowl ban on the football team.
2. Al loss of 10 scholarships a year for four years.
3. Four years of NCAA probation.
4. Removal of all or any coaches directly involved in the scandal.
1. A four year ban on post season play for both the men's and
women's basketball teams.
2. A loss of 2 scholarships a year for four years.
3. Four years of NCAA probation.
4. Removal of any and all coaches directly involved in the scandal and
subsequent 18 year coverup/
Further, removal of any and all in the Athletic Department that had directly knowledge or involvement in the grade fixing scandal.
Last, removal of any and all UNC administrators and also board members that had direct knowledge or involvement in the grade fixing scandal.
Also any and all championships won by using players that should have been academically ineligible should be voided as well as all games won during the 18 year time period.
This is the bare MINIMUM that needs to happen here in order to punish North Carolina for eighteen years of cheating, grade fixing, fake classes, all in order for their basketball and football teams to win more games. How pathetic is tha?!
Personally, if I had the power to do so, I would [b]shut down the UNC football program and their basketball programs PERMANENTLY. The University of North Carolina has made a complete mockery of our educational system of higher learning, a mockery of fair play and sportsmanship, a mockery of the governing body of college athletics. To me evidently the powers that be at UNC with their PHD and Masters Degrees knowingly and willingly either knew of, condoned, sanctioned, ignored and went along with crimes against the very student/athletes that they were entrusted to foster and educate. The fact that UNC cheated their own students is so heinous so agregious that the programs need to be shut down permanently. The name University of North Carolina is now synonymous with CHEATING, GRADE FIXING, FAKE CLASSES and more. Shame on all North Carolina school officials involved in this scandal over an eighteen year period. UNC is forever more a stain on the US educational system.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 06/06/15 11:00 am ::: |
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| LadyLionsFan wrote: |
What has gone on evidently at the University of North Carolina for the past 18 years is so heinously wrong on so many different levels that the NCAA should throw the book at the school itself (lack of institutional control (CLEARLY)), the football program, the men's basketball program and if involved (believe they were) also the women's program.
The NCAA has once again failed miserably to enforce their own rules and by laws concerning such matters. They still have a chance even though it is way too late to do the poor student/athletes that got cheated out of a real education and a degree worth anything, the NCAA can still do the right thing and severly punish the school and said athletic programs. IMHO, anything short of the following and the NCAA will be guilty of not upholding their own rules, regulations, bylaws and standards for student/athletes.
1. A four year bowl ban on the football team.
2. Al loss of 10 scholarships a year for four years.
3. Four years of NCAA probation.
4. Removal of all or any coaches directly involved in the scandal.
1. A four year ban on post season play for both the men's and
women's basketball teams.
2. A loss of 2 scholarships a year for four years.
3. Four years of NCAA probation.
4. Removal of any and all coaches directly involved in the scandal and
subsequent 18 year coverup/
Further, removal of any and all in the Athletic Department that had directly knowledge or involvement in the grade fixing scandal.
Last, removal of any and all UNC administrators and also board members that had direct knowledge or involvement in the grade fixing scandal.
Also any and all championships won by using players that should have been academically ineligible should be voided as well as all games won during the 18 year time period.
This is the bare MINIMUM that needs to happen here in order to punish North Carolina for eighteen years of cheating, grade fixing, fake classes, all in order for their basketball and football teams to win more games. How pathetic is tha?!
Personally, if I had the power to do so, I would [b]shut down the UNC football program and their basketball programs PERMANENTLY. The University of North Carolina has made a complete mockery of our educational system of higher learning, a mockery of fair play and sportsmanship, a mockery of the governing body of college athletics. To me evidently the powers that be at UNC with their PHD and Masters Degrees knowingly and willingly either knew of, condoned, sanctioned, ignored and went along with crimes against the very student/athletes that they were entrusted to foster and educate. The fact that UNC cheated their own students is so heinous so agregious that the programs need to be shut down permanently. The name University of North Carolina is now synonymous with CHEATING, GRADE FIXING, FAKE CLASSES and more. Shame on all North Carolina school officials involved in this scandal over an eighteen year period. UNC is forever more a stain on the US educational system. |
All very true ... except for the word "mockery." The whole system is a joke, as the connection between bigtime athletics and educating young people is so tenuous as to be virtually non-existent.
College athletics exists because it generates income -- through increased enrollment, alumni donations, etc. -- and has done so for more than century. I do not believe UNC is alone in this kind of behavior and in women's basketball circles, the SEC is known for playing fast and loose with what passes for "NCAA regulations". Of course, that's the pot calling out the kettle, but the real issue is the fundamental hypocrisy.
More and more I believe that schools should be allowed to spend whatever they want and do whatever they want to put teams on the field. Some kind of nod to academics -- athletes have to take 20 units of something a year -- is necessary, I guess, but if some booster wants to spend $1 million buying a quarterback, let him. He just has to do so publicly.
You'd have to have an army of investigators to watch the 300 or so Division I basketball teams, or even all the Power 5 folks, who employ very smart accountants and administrators.
What matters, in the end, are the games themselves, and if those are played with some semblance of control, pretty much everyone will be happy.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 06/06/15 11:10 am ::: |
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| We'll see what they do. I expect a hand slap rather than the death penalty, although the death penalty is probably more deserved. SMU has never really recovered from their DP. I remember when I was a kid that SMU was a real football power. Now, not so much.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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TechDawgMc
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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Location: Temple, TX
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| Posted: 06/07/15 8:33 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| We'll see what they do. I expect a hand slap rather than the death penalty, although the death penalty is probably more deserved. SMU has never really recovered from their DP. I remember when I was a kid that SMU was a real football power. Now, not so much. |
I don't see any death-penalty type situation since they weren't on probation at the time (which is a key element of the death penalty situations) They should get very stiff penalties. All titles should be vacated. Money made on tournaments should have to be returned. They should face significant scholarship reductions. They should be required to show dramatic changes and strict management of their new system.
And their accreditation agency (SACS?) should put them on probation as well--that's even more serious than the athletics to me.
Of course, since it's UNC, I don't really expect to see much of that.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 06/07/15 11:32 am ::: |
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| TechDawgMc wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| We'll see what they do. I expect a hand slap rather than the death penalty, although the death penalty is probably more deserved. SMU has never really recovered from their DP. I remember when I was a kid that SMU was a real football power. Now, not so much. |
I don't see any death-penalty type situation since they weren't on probation at the time (which is a key element of the death penalty situations) They should get very stiff penalties. All titles should be vacated. Money made on tournaments should have to be returned. They should face significant scholarship reductions. They should be required to show dramatic changes and strict management of their new system.
And their accreditation agency (SACS?) should put them on probation as well--that's even more serious than the athletics to me.
Of course, since it's UNC, I don't really expect to see much of that. |
Exactly. They're UNC. They'll get a hand slap and a "Tch. Tch. Don't do that again." No real punishment.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 06/07/15 6:40 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
It's not realistic to yank a major university's accreditation because of the impact on the degrees of graduates and students, ongoing research, research grants, etc. I expect they'll be placed on probation and will have a list of steps they will be required to take to get off probation.
I'm curious whether they can or will revoke the degrees of any students. Does that ever happen? |
If accreditation means anything, it has to mean that you can trust a class on a transcript to not be a complete fabrication. I can think of very little that is more opposed to what accreditation is supposed to signify.
That said, they will not lose their accreditation, and they probably shouldn't. But they should be on very tight supervision by the accrediting bodies. If they aren't, then those bodies are simply admitting that accreditation means nothing.
To be fair, I already think accreditation means essentially nothing, so I am not holding my breath.
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