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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9785
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Posted: 04/20/15 12:55 am ::: UConn / Stanford loss |
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UConn lost to Stanford this year, but it wasn't with the lineup they used as the season went on:
UConn versus Stanford (overtime loss)
Name..................Minutes
Mosqueda-Lewis.. 45
Stewart...............44
Stokes.................25
Jefferson..............36
Chong..................35
Tuck......................20
Nurse...................20
UConn versus Notre Dame NCAA final
Mosqueda-Lewis.. 40
Stewart...............39
Stokes.................10
Jefferson..............40
Chong..................0
Tuck......................40
Nurse...................28
Williams................3
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sammieee
Joined: 17 Jan 2009 Posts: 608
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Posted: 04/20/15 1:35 am ::: |
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This may be one of the bigger upsets in a while no? Especially if you consider the talent.
UConn had 3 AA, a 1st round pick in Stokes, and Tuck (who, if it wasn't for the other 3, may have been an AA).
Stanford had 0 AA, and only a late 2nd round pick Orrange, where as UConn had 2 first rounders (one lottery).
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NickDMB
Joined: 04 Mar 2015 Posts: 66
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Posted: 04/20/15 7:55 am ::: Re: UConn / Stanford loss |
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tfan wrote: |
UConn lost to Stanford this year, but it wasn't with the lineup they used as the season went on:
UConn versus Stanford (overtime loss)
Name..................Minutes
Mosqueda-Lewis.. 45
Stewart...............44
Stokes.................25
Jefferson..............36
Chong..................35
Tuck......................20
Nurse...................20
UConn versus Notre Dame NCAA final
Mosqueda-Lewis.. 40
Stewart...............39
Stokes.................10
Jefferson..............40
Chong..................0
Tuck......................40
Nurse...................28
Williams................3 |
I would attribute the minute change to three factors:
A) After and because of the Stanford game, Geno began shifting focus away from offense (which was a strong point of the team all season) and onto perimeter defense. Chong was a big part of why UConn were completely unable to keep Stanford guards in front of them, and Nurse is a much better defender. Chong also played a particularly good offensive game that night, contributing to her higher playing time.
B) Tuck developed as a player significantly throughout the season; remember that she was coming off of a missed season due to injury. The Stanford game was when (from a fan perspective at least), her confidence, maturity, and leadership began to emerge. This is also the reason for Stokes' dip.
C) Many coaches, but especially Geno, shorten their lineup in the NCAA tournament. He is much more experimental early in the season, which allows players to develop but also creates a more equitable distribution of playing time.
I'd add that, while this was a big upset, it's not that surprising or unusual to have a team have major weaknesses exposed in the second game of the season.
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bballjunkie
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 785
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Posted: 04/20/15 8:11 am ::: |
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Chong was bounced because of a lack of understanding of game management and defensive scouting. Nurse, KML heck also had trouble but they are smarter basketball players.
Tuck did play but she also had trouble picking up fouls and struggled on offense as Stanford had probably one of the best game plans against Uconn I have seen. They had each player scouted to high water and it paid off. Could they do it again, I doubt it as Geno would have a better game plan for them. Who knew Stanford would have zero post offense!
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snichols
Joined: 24 Mar 2010 Posts: 90
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Posted: 04/21/15 1:56 am ::: |
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Give TVD an entire offseason to devise a game plan, and she can plan a scout defense against almost anybody. She'll force you to your alternate scorers, and attack your weak defenders. Her defensive game plan limited Stewart and KML, and the offensive game plan attacked KML and Chong. Chong was a viable option to Stewie and KML offensively, but gave away as much defensively as she provided offensively. Tuck played well at times, but fouled out about the time she was starting to look like a legitimate third threat in the game.
Stewie and KML were being frustrated continually, and nobody else was ready to pick up the slack yet.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11225
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Posted: 04/21/15 9:36 am ::: |
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And note that Geno was quoted in SI as saying he was frustrated with this year's team's practice mentality and effort, and that he didn't call a timeout in this close game.
Sometimes a loss is a great thing for a coach, as suddenly you have your players' attention again.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2830 Location: New York
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Posted: 04/21/15 10:47 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
And note that Geno was quoted in SI as saying he was frustrated with this year's team's practice mentality and effort, and that he didn't call a timeout in this close game.
Sometimes a loss is a great thing for a coach, as suddenly you have your players' attention again. |
In hindsight, Geno very much coached that game with the intent to let the players win or lose it, IMO. And btw, if I'm a coach, I foul Stanford when I'm up 3 with that many seconds to play. They automatically need two possessions to win, counting the free throws as the first possession. Immediately following that loss, as a UCONN fan, I knew it was the best thing that ever could have happened to that particular team.
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 18815
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Posted: 04/21/15 1:03 pm ::: |
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Not mentioned yet in this thread yet was the uneven play of Moriah Jefferson at that point in the season. Geno had turned the keys over to her from Hartley, and he had a quote early in the year about most of his players were used to sitting in the back seat and enjoying the ride as opposed to now driving this car.
It was not that long afterwards they went on break, she went home and came back an entirely different player. The MVP of this team.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/22/15 7:33 am ::: |
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Is there a better game to lose than an early-Nov, OOC road game?
What I found interesting was Geno's post-game comment that he thought UConn had defended the Orrange 3 play well.
I couldn't disagree more. MJ made a mistake leaving Orrange to help on ?, who had picked up her dribble behind the arc and was already well-defended.
And so, like the 2000 team which lost one game, to Tenn, by 1, at Gampel in Feb on a 12-ft jumper by Semeka Randall (despite Bird getting a hand on the ball, and of which Randall said "I swear it was God who put it in the hole"), followed by an Abrosimova miss at the buzzer, this UConn team will never be in the conversation of "best team ever".
As ridiculous as UConn's record is over the years, which includes 5 undefeated seasons, to think they were very close to having had 2 more is mind-boggling.
This assumes '14-15 would have played out the same had UConn won at Maples, and I'm not sure that's a good assumption. On the other hand, I do think the 2000 team would have run the table had they won that Feb game vs. the LVs.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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bballjunkie
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 785
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Posted: 04/24/15 9:07 am ::: |
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I disagree with you, Geno had said he was concerned about the Samuelson shooters. Everyone thought that is who was going to take that shot. I don't think anyone thought it would be Orrange taking the 3. Actually smart move by whichever Samuelson it was and Orrange knocked it down. However that was just to get overtime.
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ewecon
Joined: 28 Dec 2012 Posts: 44
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Posted: 04/25/15 9:36 am ::: |
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What difference does all this make? Is there anyone (besides Stanford fans) that wouldn't have put their money on UConn -15 in a post-season rematch? You can't even compare the very early season team to what Geno had on the floor at the end of the season.
That's my opinion, anyway.
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NickDMB
Joined: 04 Mar 2015 Posts: 66
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Posted: 04/25/15 10:26 am ::: |
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ewecon wrote: |
You can't even compare the very early season team to what Geno had on the floor at the end of the season. |
No one did that.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/26/15 7:50 am ::: |
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bballjunkie wrote: |
I disagree with you, Geno had said he was concerned about the Samuelson shooters. Everyone thought that is who was going to take that shot. I don't think anyone thought it would be Orrange taking the 3. Actually smart move by whichever Samuelson it was and Orrange knocked it down. However that was just to get overtime. |
When was the last time you watched the play?
It's hard for me to believe it can be concluded UConn defended that play well.
Samuelson picked up her dribble and was guarded by Tuck. Jefferson unnecessarily left Orrange to help Tuck. Samuelson made the obvious pass to the now wide-open Orrange, who finished as the 2nd-best 3-pt shooter on the team, trailing Samuleson .438-.426. She had scored a then career-high 22 at UConn the year before. No one should have been surprised Orrange was a threat to take the shot.
Some people think Alison Bales defended the Toliver 3 well in the '06 NC, so I'm not surprised some think the same here.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
Last edited by cthskzfn on 04/26/15 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004 Posts: 11050 Location: Lost in D.C.
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Posted: 04/26/15 1:20 pm ::: |
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cthskzfn wrote: |
Some people think Alison Bales defended the Toliver 3 well in the '06 NC, so I'm not surprised some think the same here. |
I've always thought Bales defended the Toliver 3 as well as she could have, given the circumstances, but that's not the same as saying she defended it well.
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bballjunkie
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 785
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Posted: 04/26/15 4:54 pm ::: |
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[quote="cthskzfn"][quote="bballjunkie"]I disagree with you, Geno had said he was concerned about the Samuelson shooters. Everyone thought that is who was going to take that shot. I don't think anyone thought it would be Orrange taking the 3. Actually smart move by whichever Samuelson it was and Orrange knocked it down. However that was just to get overtime.[/quote]
When was the last time you watched the play?
It's hard for me to believe it can be concluded UConn defended that play well.
Samuelson picked up her dribble and was guarded by Tuck. Jefferson unnecessarily left Orrange to help Tuck. Samuelson made the obvious pass to the now wide-open Orrange, who finished as the 2nd-best 3-pt shooter on the team, trailing Samuleson .438-.436. She had scored a then career-high 22 at UConn the year before. No one should have been surprised Orrange was a threat to take the shot.
Some people think Alison Bales defended the Toliver 3 well in the '06 NC, so I'm not surprised some think the same here.[/quote]
Have a ton of tape and just watched it. Geno expected Samuelson to take the shot no surprise there, I haven't seen any other game where a final 3 has been run for Orrange only drive to basket and pull ups. The dribble was picked up when she drew the 2 defenders and the smart pass was made to the open player who happened to be Orrange who is not a prolific 3 pt shooter but can knock them down and she did, OT. If Geno was unhappy with that I think he would have said so, I don't think he holds back!
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/26/15 5:14 pm ::: |
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beknighted wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
Some people think Alison Bales defended the Toliver 3 well in the '06 NC, so I'm not surprised some think the same here. |
I've always thought Bales defended the Toliver 3 as well as she could have, given the circumstances, but that's not the same as saying she defended it well. |
Bales made a fatal mistake- she fell for Toliver's drive feint and backed up toward the paint, allowing Toliver room to step back for the 3.
Bales should have maintained her stance on the line and welcomed Toliver penetration...2 pts there and the Terps lose.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/26/15 5:23 pm ::: |
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bballjunkie wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
bballjunkie wrote: |
I disagree with you, Geno had said he was concerned about the Samuelson shooters. Everyone thought that is who was going to take that shot. I don't think anyone thought it would be Orrange taking the 3. Actually smart move by whichever Samuelson it was and Orrange knocked it down. However that was just to get overtime. |
When was the last time you watched the play?
It's hard for me to believe it can be concluded UConn defended that play well.
Samuelson picked up her dribble and was guarded by Tuck. Jefferson unnecessarily left Orrange to help Tuck. Samuelson made the obvious pass to the now wide-open Orrange, who finished as the 2nd-best 3-pt shooter on the team, trailing Samuleson .438-.436. She had scored a then career-high 22 at UConn the year before. No one should have been surprised Orrange was a threat to take the shot.
Some people think Alison Bales defended the Toliver 3 well in the '06 NC, so I'm not surprised some think the same here. |
Have a ton of tape and just watched it. Geno expected Samuelson to take the shot no surprise there, I haven't seen any other game where a final 3 has been run for Orrange only drive to basket and pull ups. The dribble was picked up when she drew the 2 defenders and the smart pass was made to the open player who happened to be Orrange who is not a prolific 3 pt shooter but can knock them down and she did, OT. If Geno was unhappy with that I think he would have said so, I don't think he holds back! |
Jefferson made the incorrect decision to jump off Orrange and attempt to guard Samuelson and was caught in no-man's land.
Tuck's extended left arm/hand prevented a clean look for Samuelson. MJ's incorrect decision to leave Orrange allowed the cleanest look Stanford could have hoped for.
If Orrange wasn't a prolific 3-pt shooter than neither was Samuelson. .438 compared to .426 is immaterial, imo.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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Posted: 05/04/15 12:19 pm ::: |
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You are basing your stats on end of year. The game was played at the beginning when Amber was not considered a 3 point threat, in fact she would have been 4th option. Amber improved her 3 point shooting over her senior year. Prior to that, teams were leaving her open at the 3 and sagging.
A great example of using stats when they are NOT pertinent.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 14125
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Posted: 05/05/15 3:16 pm ::: |
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cthskzfn wrote: |
bballjunkie wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
bballjunkie wrote: |
I disagree with you, Geno had said he was concerned about the Samuelson shooters. Everyone thought that is who was going to take that shot. I don't think anyone thought it would be Orrange taking the 3. Actually smart move by whichever Samuelson it was and Orrange knocked it down. However that was just to get overtime. |
When was the last time you watched the play?
It's hard for me to believe it can be concluded UConn defended that play well.
Samuelson picked up her dribble and was guarded by Tuck. Jefferson unnecessarily left Orrange to help Tuck. Samuelson made the obvious pass to the now wide-open Orrange, who finished as the 2nd-best 3-pt shooter on the team, trailing Samuleson .438-.436. She had scored a then career-high 22 at UConn the year before. No one should have been surprised Orrange was a threat to take the shot.
Some people think Alison Bales defended the Toliver 3 well in the '06 NC, so I'm not surprised some think the same here. |
Have a ton of tape and just watched it. Geno expected Samuelson to take the shot no surprise there, I haven't seen any other game where a final 3 has been run for Orrange only drive to basket and pull ups. The dribble was picked up when she drew the 2 defenders and the smart pass was made to the open player who happened to be Orrange who is not a prolific 3 pt shooter but can knock them down and she did, OT. If Geno was unhappy with that I think he would have said so, I don't think he holds back! |
Jefferson made the incorrect decision to jump off Orrange and attempt to guard Samuelson and was caught in no-man's land.
Tuck's extended left arm/hand prevented a clean look for Samuelson. MJ's incorrect decision to leave Orrange allowed the cleanest look Stanford could have hoped for.
If Orrange wasn't a prolific 3-pt shooter than neither was Samuelson. .438 compared to .426 is immaterial, imo. |
Here are some more relevant numbers to look at, especially as a coach going into a game.
Previous game Amber Orrange was 0-0 from 3. previous 3 games (2 exhibition games) she was 1-5. And this was the 2nd game of the season and her 3 point % from the previous season was 32.2%. And before that made 3 point shot she was 0-1. Geno wouldn't know what she will end the season shooting, so he can't make a decision in the 2nd game of the season based on her end of the season numbers, however he can make a decision in the 2nd of the game based on the numbers I just gave, which I'm sure he used and the team also knew.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012 Posts: 5427
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Posted: 05/05/15 6:40 pm ::: |
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bballjunkie wrote: |
Chong was bounced because of a lack of understanding of game management and defensive scouting. Nurse, KML heck also had trouble but they are smarter basketball players.
Tuck did play but she also had trouble picking up fouls and struggled on offense as Stanford had probably one of the best game plans against Uconn I have seen. They had each player scouted to high water and it paid off. Could they do it again, I doubt it as Geno would have a better game plan for them. Who knew Stanford would have zero post offense! |
A couple of points.
UConn was refused film of Stanford from Tara's sister for the only game Stanford had played with their new guard-oriented offense. This essentially took away the usually detailed scouting report put together by Dailey. UConn's dominance is usually credited to their superior talent but IMO the consistancy of that dominance has a lot to do with thorough preparation, something they didn't have in that game.
While Chong and Jefferson didn't do a very good job of keeping the Stanford guards from driving, I rewatched UConn's 2013 FF semi game vs. Notre Dame and observed both McBride and Diggins both drove at will on Hartley and freshman Jefferson. Dolson was suffering with injuries to both feet and the Notre Dame guards had a field day going down the lanes unopposed. Stanford just made more baskets than the Irish. Both Stanford and Notre Dame played a guard-oriented offense using high posts to scrape off opposing guards. The only difference in the two games was that Stewart and Lewis had 35 points against Stanford on 11-29 shooting while they combined for 45 points on 17-28 shooting against Notre Dame.
Chong looked no worse against Stanford's guards than Hartley looked against Notre Dame.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 14125
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Posted: 05/05/15 8:11 pm ::: |
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linkster wrote: |
UConn was refused film of Stanford from Tara's sister for the only game Stanford had played with their new guard-oriented offense. This essentially took away the usually detailed scouting report put together by Dailey. UConn's dominance is usually credited to their superior talent but IMO the consistancy of that dominance has a lot to do with thorough preparation, something they didn't have in that game. |
That's not uncommon, most if not all exhibition games have in their contract that neither school will send out game fill to opponents of the other team.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 05/10/15 7:59 am ::: |
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Nixtreefan wrote: |
You are basing your stats on end of year. The game was played at the beginning when Amber was not considered a 3 point threat, in fact she would have been 4th option. Amber improved her 3 point shooting over her senior year. Prior to that, teams were leaving her open at the 3 and sagging.
A great example of using stats when they are NOT pertinent. |
Amen.
The stats are, indeed, meaningless. Had Jefferson stayed w/ AO, as the situation called for her to do, it's doubtful UConn would have lost the game. What is not in doubt is that Stanford would not have such a clean, unrushed look.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7867 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 05/11/15 8:38 am ::: |
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I cannot believe you people are still obsessing about this game.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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