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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 67015 Location: Where the action is
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 2819 Location: Indiana
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Posted: 04/16/15 12:56 pm ::: |
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Good article. I'm not really a Kate Fagan fan but I'm glad she wrote this piece. I have said all along good for Loyd.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 04/16/15 1:01 pm ::: |
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Meh. But then, I rarely agree with anything Kate Fagan has to say. This article doesn't say that much either.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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scullyfu
Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 8864 Location: Niagara Falls
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 2819 Location: Indiana
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Posted: 04/16/15 2:25 pm ::: |
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Great article.
Quote: |
Fast forward from that hot summer 10 years ago, and here I am, on the morning of a new life adventure: the WNBA. It’s always been a dream of mine to play professional basketball. |
How on earth can you question or berate someone for chasing their dreams? This is what she has dreamed of doing and it's now there for her to go get...I don't get why so many people have come down so hard on her decision. Like she says, she will get her degree. But, to that point, for the vast majority of us, the degree is the means to get to our dreams or career...for her, it isn't necessary.
Again, congrats to her on realizing her dreams and best of luck to Ms Loyd!!
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 04/16/15 2:59 pm ::: |
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Now this is something I can get next to. It's also the sort of thing that should be a little better known while someone like Jewll Loyd is in school because it would help other kids who are struggling to see that they can make it too.
I have a son who is dyslexic. He's also musically talented, intellectually gifted, and was a very good runner. School wasn't easy for him, and after high school, although he was recruited by some colleges for their track and cross-country programs, he chose the military and became a heavy equipment mechanic. That was his way of dealing with it. I wish there had been better avenues for him at the time, but there weren't any where we were. He has overcome a lot and actually now has about 70% of the credits he needs to graduate from college, many obtained through the military.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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loneycafe
Joined: 17 Oct 2009 Posts: 248
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Posted: 04/16/15 3:27 pm ::: |
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Good piece by Loyd. I wish her well.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/16/15 5:34 pm ::: |
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Lloyd leaving does no good for WCB, as far as i can see.
That it may do a TINY bit of good for the W is immaterial imo.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8236 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 04/16/15 11:50 pm ::: Re: Why Loyd leaving early is a good thing |
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pilight wrote: |
http://sports.espn.go.com/wnba/story/_/id/12699118/why-jewell-loyd-leaving-nd-early-good-thing
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The title of Fagan's article asks, "Was Jewell Loyd's decision bad?"
This question is never answered or even explored in any rigorous way because Fagan never focuses on what her referent is for the adjective "bad". The questions should be: Bad for whom? Bad for what?
Fagan begins an absurd argument that leaving early can be good for women's college basketball because (emphases mine):
"Player movement, or the speculation of, is actually the lifeblood of most professional sports. Part of what fuels media coverage and fan excitement about professional leagues is the wheeling and dealing, the belief that your team is simply one phone call away from landing the league's best player.
"The combination of these three things -- early declarations, trades, free agency -- keeps sports fans perpetually interested in their sport, even during the offseason."
Fagan drops this illogical argument like a hot rock because, as she obviously knows, the dynamic she is describing applies only to professional sports. After a brief and gratuitous curtsey to another irrelevancy -- supposed social and media bias against women's sports -- Fagan ends with the financial truism that Loyd's income will include more than her WNBA salary.
As to "bad for whom" and "bad for what", my opinion is that Loyd's decision is good for her, good for the WNBA, and bad for women's college basketball. A fortiori it is bad for Notre Dame and Muffet McGraw.
What you see depends upon where you stand. |
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/17/15 7:04 am ::: Re: Why Loyd leaving early is a good thing |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
pilight wrote: |
http://sports.espn.go.com/wnba/story/_/id/12699118/why-jewell-loyd-leaving-nd-early-good-thing
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The title of Fagan's article asks, "Was Jewell Loyd's decision bad?"
This question is never answered or even explored in any rigorous way because Fagan never focuses on what her referent is for the adjective "bad". The questions should be: Bad for whom? Bad for what?
Fagan begins an absurd argument that leaving early can be good for women's college basketball because (emphases mine):
"Player movement, or the speculation of, is actually the lifeblood of most professional sports. Part of what fuels media coverage and fan excitement about professional leagues is the wheeling and dealing, the belief that your team is simply one phone call away from landing the league's best player.
"The combination of these three things -- early declarations, trades, free agency -- keeps sports fans perpetually interested in their sport, even during the offseason."
Fagan drops this illogical argument like a hot rock because, as she obviously knows, the dynamic she is describing applies only to professional sports. After a brief and gratuitous curtsey to another irrelevancy -- supposed social and media bias against women's sports -- Fagan ends with the financial truism that Loyd's income will include more than her WNBA salary.
As to "bad for whom" and "bad for what", my opinion is that Loyd's decision is good for her, good for the WNBA, and bad for women's college basketball. A fortiori it is bad for Notre Dame and Muffet McGraw.
What you see depends upon where you stand. |
Maybe...maybe not. Given the paucity of "FF-quality" teams in WCB, ND has a good chance to reach that destination again next year, sans Lloyd.
Making that assumption, Lloyd's absence should help the F/ing Irish, as silly as it seems, based upon her 2-yr NC performance of 8-33 FGs, which may rank as the worst shooting by the best player in NCAA NC career history.
That said, I don't subscribe to the idiotic idea that Lloyd was motivated to leave ND because of the "specter of losing to UConn in 3 straight NCs". Arrogant nonsense, imo.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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Nerd2
Joined: 06 Jun 2010 Posts: 7659
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Posted: 04/17/15 1:42 pm ::: |
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I thought the quote that Muffet gave (with my emphasis added) in the linked article were very telling:
http://www.wsbt.com/sports/muffet-mcgraw-loyd-made-bad-decision-to-go-pro/32369432
Quote: |
"She didn't really give us an opportunity to try to talk her out of it because the deadline was the very next day to declare. Wish we would have had time when she made that decision, which was apparently a couple weeks before." |
A statement like that suggests to me that Muffet had a firm opinion as to what Jewell's decision should be. And her next statement reinforces that:
Quote: |
I think it's a really bad decision for women, especially to try to leave early |
Given the sequence of events, my suspicion is that Muffet had indicated her opinion strongly enough that Jewell did not feel she'd get honest feedback. I thought it was a bit interesting that neither school of the early declarers seemed to send a representative.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/17/15 3:10 pm ::: |
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Nerd2 wrote: |
I thought the quote that Muffet gave (with my emphasis added) in the linked article were very telling:
http://www.wsbt.com/sports/muffet-mcgraw-loyd-made-bad-decision-to-go-pro/32369432
Quote: |
"She didn't really give us an opportunity to try to talk her out of it because the deadline was the very next day to declare. Wish we would have had time when she made that decision, which was apparently a couple weeks before." |
A statement like that suggests to me that Muffet had a firm opinion as to what Jewell's decision should be. And her next statement reinforces that:
Quote: |
I think it's a really bad decision for women, especially to try to leave early |
Given the sequence of events, my suspicion is that Muffet had indicated her opinion strongly enough that Jewell did not feel she'd get honest feedback. I thought it was a bit interesting that neither school of the early declarers seemed to send a representative. |
That feedback likely was "honest."
I have been fully supportive that it was Jewell's decision to make, but I don't think lying to your coach about your decision is a particularly good way to handle it.
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dtrain34
Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 409 Location: Lacey, Washington
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Posted: 04/17/15 7:16 pm ::: |
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I never had a single issue with Lloyd leaving early.
I did post several times that it was disingenuous to say she was leaving to "declare for the WNBA draft." That was a convenient shorthand the typical fan would understand but which made the W seem like the attraction and not the Euros. (Not too many Americans would buy "I am leaving to pursue my lifelong dream of playing for Valosun Brno")
At least Fagan made that part of the equation clear.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012 Posts: 5424
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Posted: 04/17/15 7:46 pm ::: |
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Are there rules about pro teams and/or agents contacting college players during the season? It may well have been that up until ND lost to UConn Loyd had no idea of what her future could be like, but once her season was over Seattle could contact her and more than that, she could have been contacted by representatives of alien teams specifying what her earning potential could be if she turned pro as the No 1 pick. Knowing that you would definitely be the top choice in the draft might influence your decision and Loyd may not have had that assurance until after the FF semis.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/17/15 7:57 pm ::: |
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linkster wrote: |
Are there rules about pro teams and/or agents contacting college players during the season? It may well have been that up until ND lost to UConn Loyd had no idea of what her future could be like, but once her season was over Seattle could contact her and more than that, she could have been contacted by representatives of alien teams specifying what her earning potential could be if she turned pro as the No 1 pick. Knowing that you would definitely be the top choice in the draft might influence your decision and Loyd may not have had that assurance until after the FF semis. |
If being the #1 pick does have financial advantages over #2, then it was imperative for her to jump now due to Stewart being #1 next year.
I wonder though if there is much, if any, of a $$$ difference.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004 Posts: 16368 Location: Chicago
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Posted: 04/17/15 8:01 pm ::: |
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dtrain34 wrote: |
I never had a single issue with Lloyd leaving early.
I did post several times that it was disingenuous to say she was leaving to "declare for the WNBA draft." That was a convenient shorthand the typical fan would understand but which made the W seem like the attraction and not the Euros. (Not too many Americans would buy "I am leaving to pursue my lifelong dream of playing for Valosun Brno")
At least Fagan made that part of the equation clear. |
Maybe. Loyd could have left at any time to go play in Europe - see Epiphany Prince and Schuye LaRue, for example. Instead, she didn't leave Notre Dame until she was eligible for the WNBA.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/17/15 8:08 pm ::: |
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PUmatty wrote: |
dtrain34 wrote: |
I never had a single issue with Lloyd leaving early.
I did post several times that it was disingenuous to say she was leaving to "declare for the WNBA draft." That was a convenient shorthand the typical fan would understand but which made the W seem like the attraction and not the Euros. (Not too many Americans would buy "I am leaving to pursue my lifelong dream of playing for Valosun Brno")
At least Fagan made that part of the equation clear. |
Maybe. Loyd could have left at any time to go play in Europe - see Epiphany Prince and Schuye LaRue, for example. Instead, she didn't leave Notre Dame until she was eligible for the WNBA. |
And she had no deadline to declare anything to play in Europe.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9668
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Posted: 04/17/15 8:18 pm ::: |
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cthskzfn wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
Are there rules about pro teams and/or agents contacting college players during the season? It may well have been that up until ND lost to UConn Loyd had no idea of what her future could be like, but once her season was over Seattle could contact her and more than that, she could have been contacted by representatives of alien teams specifying what her earning potential could be if she turned pro as the No 1 pick. Knowing that you would definitely be the top choice in the draft might influence your decision and Loyd may not have had that assurance until after the FF semis. |
If being the #1 pick does have financial advantages over #2, then it was imperative for her to jump now due to Stewart being #1 next year.
I wonder though if there is much, if any, of a $$$ difference. |
The collective bargaining agreement has the first four players in the draft getting the same amount.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9668
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Posted: 04/17/15 8:26 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
Nerd2 wrote: |
I thought the quote that Muffet gave (with my emphasis added) in the linked article were very telling:
http://www.wsbt.com/sports/muffet-mcgraw-loyd-made-bad-decision-to-go-pro/32369432
Quote: |
"She didn't really give us an opportunity to try to talk her out of it because the deadline was the very next day to declare. Wish we would have had time when she made that decision, which was apparently a couple weeks before." |
A statement like that suggests to me that Muffet had a firm opinion as to what Jewell's decision should be. And her next statement reinforces that:
Quote: |
I think it's a really bad decision for women, especially to try to leave early |
Given the sequence of events, my suspicion is that Muffet had indicated her opinion strongly enough that Jewell did not feel she'd get honest feedback. I thought it was a bit interesting that neither school of the early declarers seemed to send a representative. |
That feedback likely was "honest."
I have been fully supportive that it was Jewell's decision to make, but I don't think lying to your coach about your decision is a particularly good way to handle it. |
From Loyd's perspective it saved her weeks or months of McGraw trying to talk her out of it and expressing disapproval or strained relations. She might not be welcome on campus in the future, but that might be irrelevant as she may not want to come back and visit.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 04/17/15 8:33 pm ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
Are there rules about pro teams and/or agents contacting college players during the season? It may well have been that up until ND lost to UConn Loyd had no idea of what her future could be like, but once her season was over Seattle could contact her and more than that, she could have been contacted by representatives of alien teams specifying what her earning potential could be if she turned pro as the No 1 pick. Knowing that you would definitely be the top choice in the draft might influence your decision and Loyd may not have had that assurance until after the FF semis. |
If being the #1 pick does have financial advantages over #2, then it was imperative for her to jump now due to Stewart being #1 next year.
I wonder though if there is much, if any, of a $$$ difference. |
The collective bargaining agreement has the first four players in the draft getting the same amount. |
Thanks, but since the real $$$ is overseas, does #1 hold any advantage (other than the player's talent)?
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9668
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Posted: 04/17/15 9:12 pm ::: |
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cthskzfn wrote: |
tfan wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
Are there rules about pro teams and/or agents contacting college players during the season? It may well have been that up until ND lost to UConn Loyd had no idea of what her future could be like, but once her season was over Seattle could contact her and more than that, she could have been contacted by representatives of alien teams specifying what her earning potential could be if she turned pro as the No 1 pick. Knowing that you would definitely be the top choice in the draft might influence your decision and Loyd may not have had that assurance until after the FF semis. |
If being the #1 pick does have financial advantages over #2, then it was imperative for her to jump now due to Stewart being #1 next year.
I wonder though if there is much, if any, of a $$$ difference. |
The collective bargaining agreement has the first four players in the draft getting the same amount. |
Thanks, but since the real $$$ is overseas, does #1 hold any advantage (other than the player's talent)? |
Don't know, but I would guess that the main, and possibly only factor in determining the salary they are offered is the numbers they put up in the upcoming WNBA season, as well as any WNBA honors they get.
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Luuuc #NATC
Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 21950
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Posted: 04/18/15 1:07 am ::: |
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Nerd2 wrote: |
I thought the quote that Muffet gave (with my emphasis added) in the linked article were very telling:
http://www.wsbt.com/sports/muffet-mcgraw-loyd-made-bad-decision-to-go-pro/32369432
Quote: |
"She didn't really give us an opportunity to try to talk her out of it because the deadline was the very next day to declare. Wish we would have had time when she made that decision, which was apparently a couple weeks before." |
A statement like that suggests to me that Muffet had a firm opinion as to what Jewell's decision should be. And her next statement reinforces that:
Quote: |
I think it's a really bad decision for women, especially to try to leave early |
Given the sequence of events, my suspicion is that Muffet had indicated her opinion strongly enough that Jewell did not feel she'd get honest feedback. I thought it was a bit interesting that neither school of the early declarers seemed to send a representative. |
It was my understanding that MM still had time to talk her out of it.
The declaration deadline might have been the next day, but after that weren't there a number of days during which players who had declared could reverse their decisions without eligibility penalty?
_________________ Thanks for calling. I wait all night for calls like these.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 14116
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Posted: 04/18/15 1:24 am ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
tfan wrote: |
cthskzfn wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
Are there rules about pro teams and/or agents contacting college players during the season? It may well have been that up until ND lost to UConn Loyd had no idea of what her future could be like, but once her season was over Seattle could contact her and more than that, she could have been contacted by representatives of alien teams specifying what her earning potential could be if she turned pro as the No 1 pick. Knowing that you would definitely be the top choice in the draft might influence your decision and Loyd may not have had that assurance until after the FF semis. |
If being the #1 pick does have financial advantages over #2, then it was imperative for her to jump now due to Stewart being #1 next year.
I wonder though if there is much, if any, of a $$$ difference. |
The collective bargaining agreement has the first four players in the draft getting the same amount. |
Thanks, but since the real $$$ is overseas, does #1 hold any advantage (other than the player's talent)? |
Don't know, but I would guess that the main, and possibly only factor in determining the salary they are offered is the numbers they put up in the upcoming WNBA season, as well as any WNBA honors they get. |
In the future their numbers in the WNBA and overseas will make a difference in what players get offered, but they are probably already getting offers and may sign a contract with an overseas team before the WNBA season starts so their 1st contract won't be dependent on their WNBA numbers and honors they receive throughout the season or after the season, but being the #1 pick, especially for an American could make a difference.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 14116
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Posted: 04/18/15 1:29 am ::: |
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Nerd2 wrote: |
I thought it was a bit interesting that neither school of the early declarers seemed to send a representative. |
Given how things have played out, at least the perception in the media, I could see why Jewell wouldn't invite Muffet McGraw to join her at the draft. (I don't know if she was invited, but it would be fair to say it's understandable if she wasn't)
I don't know what type of relationship Amanda Zahui B. had with the coaching staff at Minnesota, but she only played for them for 1 season so I could see her not feeling close enough to them to want to invite them.
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