RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

Ali Patberg wins MaxPreps National Girls Basketball POY
Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11105



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 12:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The first thing: My Player of the Year is not the player with the most college potential. My Player of the Year had, in my mind, the best year in high school.

Katie Lou Samuelson has a higher ceiling than Ali Patberg, and for that matter, so might Martina Mabrey, and several others.

But Indiana was strong this year, with Bedford North Lawrence, Lawrence North and Heritage Christian all very good teams. And Indiana does not allow teams to travel more than 250 miles, or bring in teams from more than 250 miles away (I think).

Patberg carried her team all year, as they were expected to drop off significantly, and then led them in the state playoffs when her coach reminded her she needed to score more instead of giving the ball up.

As with the overall No. 1, you can certainly make a case for others: Samuelson had a tremendous year, Mabrey was huge down the stretch for Manasquan, and Crystal Dangerfield wouldn't be a bad choice either.

But I felt Patberg was the most deserving, and the folks I talked to didn't disagree.

And to reiterate: For me, this award is not about college potential, but high school production.



_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 2:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Oldfandepot2 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
uconnfan1 wrote:
When I first read that Ali won Max Prep Player of the Year, my first reaction was who is she? Ali is not one of the Names of the Top HS Seniors this year.

Then I did some looking at realized Ali is not ranked in the Top 10 in any of the Ranking Services. Also Clay had an article on the Top Shooting Guards in HS and she's #3 on his own list. http://www.maxpreps.com/news/XXWPIcfUukSW22CL-v3Vlw/top-8-shooting-guards-in-high-school-girls-basketball.htm Marina Mabrey a future teammate of her at Notre Dame was ranked #1



Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year.


I have, she is good but not the kind of good you are going to get w
Like maybe the way she ripped through the state championship tournment, beating several nationally ranked teams, dominating play, and leading her team to the state title?

Have either of you seen her play?


I have seen Ali play. She is good, very good. I liked Jackie Young better whom I also saw play. What several nationally ranked teams did Ali's HS team beat and their ranking?


If you want to know you'll have to look up their ranking at the time yourself, but Lawrence North, Homestead and Bedford North Lawrence were all nationally ranked. BNL was a top 10 national team, #1 in the state, two time defending state champ, and undefeated with multiple high Div 1 commits when Patberg had 21 points, 10 rebounds, four assists and four steals in a 48-40 win in the regional finals. They also beat nationally ranked Heritage Christian during the regular season. Patberg scored 21 including the two game winning free throws with 2 seconds left. In the state semifinal game against nationally ranked Lawrence North Patberg had 39 points, six assists and six rebounds in a 69-60 win. She made 14 of 18 shots from the floor and 9 of 10 from the line.

She's smart, tough, dribbles, passes, rebounds well, scores most of her points driving to the hoop but can also shoot 3s, is a born leader, and will fit right in at ND.


Shmermerer1



Joined: 04 Aug 2014
Posts: 284



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 2:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This is exactly why I said in a different forum that she may get more minutes than the other freshmen. Ali looks to be the most consistent overall of the incoming freshmen, but not necessarily the most talented.


Oldfandepot2



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 996
Location: Northeast


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 3:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Oldfandepot2 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
uconnfan1 wrote:
When I first read that Ali won Max Prep Player of the Year, my first reaction was who is she? Ali is not one of the Names of the Top HS Seniors this year.

Then I did some looking at realized Ali is not ranked in the Top 10 in any of the Ranking Services. Also Clay had an article on the Top Shooting Guards in HS and she's #3 on his own list. http://www.maxpreps.com/news/XXWPIcfUukSW22CL-v3Vlw/top-8-shooting-guards-in-high-school-girls-basketball.htm Marina Mabrey a future teammate of her at Notre Dame was ranked #1



Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year.


I have, she is good but not the kind of good you are going to get w
Like maybe the way she ripped through the state championship tournment, beating several nationally ranked teams, dominating play, and leading her team to the state title?

Have either of you seen her play?


I have seen Ali play. She is good, very good. I liked Jackie Young better whom I also saw play. What several nationally ranked teams did Ali's HS team beat and their ranking?


If you want to know you'll have to look up their ranking at the time yourself, but Lawrence North, Homestead and Bedford North Lawrence were all nationally ranked. BNL was a top 10 national team, #1 in the state, two time defending state champ, and undefeated with multiple high Div 1 commits when Patberg had 21 points, 10 rebounds, four assists and four steals in a 48-40 win in the regional finals. They also beat nationally ranked Heritage Christian during the regular season. Patberg scored 21 including the two game winning free throws with 2 seconds left. In the state semifinal game against nationally ranked Lawrence North Patberg had 39 points, six assists and six rebounds in a 69-60 win. She made 14 of 18 shots from the floor and 9 of 10 from the line.

She's smart, tough, dribbles, passes, rebounds well, scores most of her points driving to the hoop but can also shoot 3s, is a born leader, and will fit right in at ND.


Just an FYI
Lawerance North in the final poll is ranked 16th, Columbia North 18th and Beford North Lawrance is ranked 19th. Boy the Califorina girls teams overwhelm the top 20 with the top three teams being from California. Mater
dei is number one.



_________________
Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 3:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Oldfandepot2 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Oldfandepot2 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
uconnfan1 wrote:
When I first read that Ali won Max Prep Player of the Year, my first reaction was who is she? Ali is not one of the Names of the Top HS Seniors this year.

Then I did some looking at realized Ali is not ranked in the Top 10 in any of the Ranking Services. Also Clay had an article on the Top Shooting Guards in HS and she's #3 on his own list. http://www.maxpreps.com/news/XXWPIcfUukSW22CL-v3Vlw/top-8-shooting-guards-in-high-school-girls-basketball.htm Marina Mabrey a future teammate of her at Notre Dame was ranked #1



Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year.


I have, she is good but not the kind of good you are going to get w
Like maybe the way she ripped through the state championship tournment, beating several nationally ranked teams, dominating play, and leading her team to the state title?

Have either of you seen her play?


I have seen Ali play. She is good, very good. I liked Jackie Young better whom I also saw play. What several nationally ranked teams did Ali's HS team beat and their ranking?


If you want to know you'll have to look up their ranking at the time yourself, but Lawrence North, Homestead and Bedford North Lawrence were all nationally ranked. BNL was a top 10 national team, #1 in the state, two time defending state champ, and undefeated with multiple high Div 1 commits when Patberg had 21 points, 10 rebounds, four assists and four steals in a 48-40 win in the regional finals. They also beat nationally ranked Heritage Christian during the regular season. Patberg scored 21 including the two game winning free throws with 2 seconds left. In the state semifinal game against nationally ranked Lawrence North Patberg had 39 points, six assists and six rebounds in a 69-60 win. She made 14 of 18 shots from the floor and 9 of 10 from the line.

She's smart, tough, dribbles, passes, rebounds well, scores most of her points driving to the hoop but can also shoot 3s, is a born leader, and will fit right in at ND.


Just an FYI
Lawerance North in the final poll is ranked 16th, Columbia North 18th and Beford North Lawrance is ranked 19th. Boy the Califorina girls teams overwhelm the top 20 with the top three teams being from California. Mater
dei is number one.


I don't know what rankings you're looking at. Maxpreps has Columbus North at 5. Both they and and USA Today have only one Cal team (St Mary's) in their top tens. Both have Neumann-Goretti of Philly as their #1 team. One has Mater Dei 11th, the other has them 13th.

ESPN seems to have gotten rid of their girls HS rankings as part of their horrific website redesign.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 6:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:


I don't know what rankings you're looking at.


MaxPreps has two very different high school team rankings, one done by a HAL 9000 computer and the other done by Clay Kallam.

http://www.maxpreps.com/polls/girls-basketball/xcellent25.htm

USA Today used to have high school team ranking and so did someone else I've forgotten.
Oldfandepot2



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 996
Location: Northeast


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 6:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Oldfandepot2 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Oldfandepot2 wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
tfan wrote:
uconnfan1 wrote:
When I first read that Ali won Max Prep Player of the Year, my first reaction was who is she? Ali is not one of the Names of the Top HS Seniors this year.

Then I did some looking at realized Ali is not ranked in the Top 10 in any of the Ranking Services. Also Clay had an article on the Top Shooting Guards in HS and she's #3 on his own list. http://www.maxpreps.com/news/XXWPIcfUukSW22CL-v3Vlw/top-8-shooting-guards-in-high-school-girls-basketball.htm Marina Mabrey a future teammate of her at Notre Dame was ranked #1



Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year.


I have, she is good but not the kind of good you are going to get w
Like maybe the way she ripped through the state championship tournment, beating several nationally ranked teams, dominating play, and leading her team to the state title?

Have either of you seen her play?


I have seen Ali play. She is good, very good. I liked Jackie Young better whom I also saw play. What several nationally ranked teams did Ali's HS team beat and their ranking?


If you want to know you'll have to look up their ranking at the time yourself, but Lawrence North, Homestead and Bedford North Lawrence were all nationally ranked. BNL was a top 10 national team, #1 in the state, two time defending state champ, and undefeated with multiple high Div 1 commits when Patberg had 21 points, 10 rebounds, four assists and four steals in a 48-40 win in the regional finals. They also beat nationally ranked Heritage Christian during the regular season. Patberg scored 21 including the two game winning free throws with 2 seconds left. In the state semifinal game against nationally ranked Lawrence North Patberg had 39 points, six assists and six rebounds in a 69-60 win. She made 14 of 18 shots from the floor and 9 of 10 from the line.

She's smart, tough, dribbles, passes, rebounds well, scores most of her points driving to the hoop but can also shoot 3s, is a born leader, and will fit right in at ND.


Just an FYI
Lawerance North in the final poll is ranked 16th, Columbia North 18th and Beford North Lawrance is ranked 19th. Boy the Califorina girls teams overwhelm the top 20 with the top three teams being from California. Mater
dei is number one.


I don't know what rankings you're looking at. Maxpreps has Columbus North at 5. Both they and and USA Today have only one Cal team (St Mary's) in their top tens. Both have Neumann-Goretti of Philly as their #1 team. One has Mater Dei 11th, the other has them 13th.

ESPN seems to have gotten rid of their girls HS rankings as part of their horrific website redesign.


Max Preps Computer Rankings April 05, 2015



_________________
Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:


I don't know what rankings you're looking at.


MaxPreps has two very different high school team rankings, one done by a HAL 9000 computer and the other done by Clay Kallam.

http://www.maxpreps.com/polls/girls-basketball/xcellent25.htm

USA Today used to have high school team ranking and so did someone else I've forgotten.


USA Today still does, as I indicated.


shadowboxer



Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 2126



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 7:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Something else I was told by Maxpreps in the near past. They can only rate schools and players whose coaches, etc... are entering their team and/or players stats at Maxpreps. There are several top schools and players who are not considered year in and year out for this reason, per Maxpreps.


Oldfandepot2



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 996
Location: Northeast


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 7:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

shadowboxer wrote:
Something else I was told by Maxpreps in the near past. They can only rate schools and players whose coaches, etc... are entering their team and/or players stats at Maxpreps. There are several top schools and players who are not considered year in and year out for this reason, per Maxpreps.


Did they mention any of the schools that do not enter their stats? Has Max prep asked for them?



_________________
Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
shadowboxer



Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 2126



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/12/15 7:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

At the time, I was asking about some Ohio schools and players. And they were right, coaches from Start and Waite, who were both strong at the time, had not entered stats. Ohio has realigned many school systems and still, often the public schools, do not enter information.

Haven't checked to see if either Notre Dame Academy or Rogers, both strong schools who went to finals, with players of the year and out of conference games, entered any stats- I have become too frustrated w/the system.


GEF34



Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14102



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 4:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Oldfandepot2 wrote:
shadowboxer wrote:
Something else I was told by Maxpreps in the near past. They can only rate schools and players whose coaches, etc... are entering their team and/or players stats at Maxpreps. There are several top schools and players who are not considered year in and year out for this reason, per Maxpreps.


Did they mention any of the schools that do not enter their stats? Has Max prep asked for them?


Given that MaxPreps covers the entire country and many sports, I doubt they are going to have someone or people go through the site and contact all the schools or all the schools various sports coaches about not posting stats and schedules, that would take a lot of time and energy, especially if coaches continually don't post them.


IM in OC



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 999
Location: Orange County, CA


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 9:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

shadowboxer wrote:
Something else I was told by Maxpreps in the near past. They can only rate schools and players whose coaches, etc... are entering their team and/or players stats at Maxpreps. There are several top schools and players who are not considered year in and year out for this reason, per Maxpreps.


Mater Dei, the school of KLS, does not enter player or team stats into the Max Preps system. Yet they rank them and KLS.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11105



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 9:24 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

shadowboxer wrote:
Something else I was told by Maxpreps in the near past. They can only rate schools and players whose coaches, etc... are entering their team and/or players stats at Maxpreps. There are several top schools and players who are not considered year in and year out for this reason, per Maxpreps.


That is completely incorrect. I've been doing the rankings for many years, maybe 10, and I have never considered what information is posted, or not posted.

Check your source on this one, because he or she is wrong -- and I wouldn't trust anything else they said to you either.



_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
bballjunkie



Joined: 12 Aug 2014
Posts: 785



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 10:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

First of all there are no humans involved in the computer rankings.

Clay you may have been doing this for a long time but you make mistakes. Arike is not a lefty, your write ups are wrong re who teams lost to and what divisions they are in. You say some don't get a lot of love like Idaho and you give others love but they don't deserve it as they are in weak states and never play anyone.

The biggest example was when you put a team who lost against an out of state team at home as number 1 even when they went on to play terrible competition to win their weak state.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11105



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 11:04 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I do make mistakes, but calling Tennessee "weak" could be classified as a mistake as well. Blackman lost to Potter's House Christian, which returned to the rankings by year's end and lost two of its five games when its star player wasn't with the team.

The computer rankings are done by machine, but they automatically rank teams regardless of total input. I've had to go in and manually correct some rankings this year because either results weren't inputted, and/or were wrong (Maize of Kansas springs to mind).

The MaxPreps' rankings are not influenced by who posts info and who doesn't, except insofar as non-posted results are not included in the computer rankings.



_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8151
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 11:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

MaxPreps says this about the computer ranking:

"Other factors that will affect the rankings are times when MaxPreps has incomplete or inaccurate information."

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/X4MCEfnBEeC-rAAmVebEWg/how-the-maxpreps-computer-rankings-work.htm

Here is the USA Today ranking, which also seems to be done by one guy, Jim Halley:

http://usatodayhss.com/rankings/expert/girls/basketball/2014/16

HoopGurlz used to do high school rankings when Glenn Nelson ran it, but I don't think they do anymore. The ESPNW website is completely unintelligible to me.

The MaxPreps computer ranking has some glaring anomalies. For example, it ranks Capital Prep of Hartford, Connecticut, at 386 while Clay has them at 18 and Halley has them at 16. I've seen them this season, and while I wouldn't know precisely where to rank them, they were clearly at least a top 50 team.
ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 11:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

All you need to know about the silliness of the Maxpreps computer rankings is that it produces a higher ranking for Mater Dei than for St. Mary's even though St Mary's has a better record and beat Mater Dei head to head on a neutral court at the end of the season. That is so obviously wrong as to elimimnate any shred of credibility.

There simply are not enough common opponents and schedule overlap for a computer algorythym to work for national girls HS basketball. We're not talking Sagarin here. Subjective rankings may not be ideal but they invariably make more sense.

It's pretty obvious though why the UConn fans like the Maxprep computer poll. Rolling Eyes

Do we know if ESPN has abandoned its girls HS power 25? I can't find it anywhere.


shadowboxer



Joined: 18 Jul 2008
Posts: 2126



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 11:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
shadowboxer wrote:
Something else I was told by Maxpreps in the near past. They can only rate schools and players whose coaches, etc... are entering their team and/or players stats at Maxpreps. There are several top schools and players who are not considered year in and year out for this reason, per Maxpreps.


That is completely incorrect. I've been doing the rankings for many years, maybe 10, and I have never considered what information is posted, or not posted.

Check your source on this one, because he or she is wrong -- and I wouldn't trust anything else they said to you either.


I no longer have the e-mail discourse from the gentleman I had contacted about 5-6 yrs back. It was not you, Clay, but someone involved w/Ohio's ranking system at that time who had written a column on a MAXPREPS site assessing Ohio high school scene.

Thank you for your feedback, Clay.


NickDMB



Joined: 04 Mar 2015
Posts: 66



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 6:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
NickDMB wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Oldfandepot2 wrote:
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.

Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception.


Heard it all before. Two years ago "can't rely on a freshman point guard". Last year can't rely on a freshman post."

It's an old wives tale.


It's not an old wives tale. You're fine in this case, mostly because (as cbiebel pointed out) you have three guards and on any given night one is going to be playing well. But generally players (especially point guards) perform far better after their freshmen years. I would say that Moriah Jefferson is the rule here, and Allen is the exception.


Three years in a row ND has had a freshman starter. All three years ND made the FF. It's an old wive's tale. That your favorite fresman struggled doesn't change that.

Or maybe McGraw's just better at getting freshmen ready to play, instilling confidence, and adjusting the rest to work with the freshman's limitations.

But saying ND will struggle if a freshman starts is demonstrably false.

Calm down. Where did I say that ND would struggle?


Oldfandepot2



Joined: 05 Jul 2013
Posts: 996
Location: Northeast


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/13/15 7:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
All you need to know about the silliness of the Maxpreps computer rankings is that it produces a higher ranking for Mater Dei than for St. Mary's even though St Mary's has a better record and beat Mater Dei head to head on a neutral court at the end of the season. That is so obviously wrong as to elimimnate any shred of credibility.

There simply are not enough common opponents and schedule overlap for a computer algorythym to work for national girls HS basketball. We're not talking Sagarin here. Subjective rankings may not be ideal but they invariably make more sense.

It's pretty obvious though why the UConn fans like the Maxprep computer poll. Rolling Eyes

Do we know if ESPN has abandoned its girls HS power 25? I can't find it anywhere.


Which UCONN fans are you referring to?



_________________
Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin