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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4053
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Posted: 04/11/15 11:16 am ::: Ali Patberg wins MaxPreps National Girls Basketball POY |
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The article is written by our own Clay Kallam!
http://www.maxpreps.com/m/article.aspx?articleid=ccdcae01-c6f6-43f0-8a83-9c98b5999239
Past Recipients include:
2014 - A'ja Wilson, Heathwood Hall Episcopal (Columbia, S.C.)
2013 - Diamond DeShields, Norcross (Ga.)
2012 - Breanna Stewart, Cicero-North Syracuse (Cicero, N.Y.)
2011 - Kaleena Mosqueda-Lewis, Mater Dei (Santa Ana, Calif.)
2010 - Chiney Ogwumike, Cy-Fair (Cypress, Texas)
2009 - Skylar Diggins, South Bend Washington (Ind.)
2008 - Nneka Ogwumike, Cy-Fair (Cypress, Texas)
2007 - Maya Moore, Collins Hill (Suwanee, Ga.)
2006 - Jacki Gemelos, St. Mary's (Stockton, Calif.)
What wonderful company she joins!
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013 Posts: 5223
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Posted: 04/11/15 11:19 am ::: |
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This is why I find it funny people think ND is going to fall back without Loyd. Adding the National Player of the year is huge but she might be less highly heralded than Ogunbowale and Mabrey who are both top 10 talents who played for the USA National team. Between those 3 and just the natural scoring increase you could except from an Allen or Turner and they will make up for the 20 ppg or so Loyd got a night.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014 Posts: 162
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Posted: 04/11/15 11:49 am ::: |
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Durantula wrote: |
This is why I find it funny people think ND is going to fall back without Loyd. Adding the National Player of the year is huge but she might be less highly heralded than Ogunbowale and Mabrey who are both top 10 talents who played for the USA National team. Between those 3 and just the natural scoring increase you could except from an Allen or Turner and they will make up for the 20 ppg or so Loyd got a night. |
Yeah, I agree. I wondered what Jewell Loyd leaving would mean for ND---but was also surprised to read some articles that seemed to be questioning ND's capacity to return to the FF/NC game. It's exciting to have a superstar on a team, but it's also exciting to see what a team does in the absence of that superstar.* I'm thinking now of Maryland this year. It wouldn't surprise me to see ND maintain its top-tier status in the ACC/WCBB in general (and of course, who knows what new superstar might emerge on the team).
*Edited to add: It might be exciting for the ND players too. I don't mean in a personal sense, because I'm sure they'll miss their teammate. I just mean that they now have the opportunity to rethink their roles on the team and consider new ways in which they can contribute. The team sort of gets to reinvent itself. This kind of opportunity doesn't come up every year.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/11/15 3:17 pm ::: |
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justinabina wrote: |
Durantula wrote: |
This is why I find it funny people think ND is going to fall back without Loyd. Adding the National Player of the year is huge but she might be less highly heralded than Ogunbowale and Mabrey who are both top 10 talents who played for the USA National team. Between those 3 and just the natural scoring increase you could except from an Allen or Turner and they will make up for the 20 ppg or so Loyd got a night. |
Yeah, I agree. I wondered what Jewell Loyd leaving would mean for ND---but was also surprised to read some articles that seemed to be questioning ND's capacity to return to the FF/NC game. It's exciting to have a superstar on a team, but it's also exciting to see what a team does in the absence of that superstar.* I'm thinking now of Maryland this year. It wouldn't surprise me to see ND maintain its top-tier status in the ACC/WCBB in general (and of course, who knows what new superstar might emerge on the team).
*Edited to add: It might be exciting for the ND players too. I don't mean in a personal sense, because I'm sure they'll miss their teammate. I just mean that they now have the opportunity to rethink their roles on the team and consider new ways in which they can contribute. The team sort of gets to reinvent itself. This kind of opportunity doesn't come up every year. |
As I wrote in another thread, they have been writing that every year. They said they couldn't replace Peters, Novosel and Mallory, then they said they couldn't replace Diggins, then they said they couldn't replace Achonwa, Braker and McBride, now they say they can't replace Loyd. But each time they ended up back in the final four. Actually, they're probably in better shape to replace Loyd than they were to replace the losses any of those three previous years.
And in addition to the freshmen, Nelson returns from her injury redshirt to add some depth in the post too. That's not to suggest I certainly wouldn't prefer Loyd return, but Muffet seems to adjust pretty well to losses and she's been building better quality depth than she ever had in previous years.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8234 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 04/11/15 6:16 pm ::: |
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Good for Patberg.
Clay, was this a pick solely by you or were others on a panel? |
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sammieee
Joined: 17 Jan 2009 Posts: 608
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Posted: 04/11/15 7:29 pm ::: |
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I think ND will make the F4 next year, but without Loyd, I'm not so sure they can challenge Conn. I thought they had a real good chance to beat UConn next year.
However, the lost of Loyd will probably accelerate the growth of the players (Turner and Allen will be 1st/2nd options, freshman guards will get more playing times, etc), and they return everyone (minus the older Mabrey) in 2016-2017. They may be the favorites for the title (after Stewert/Jefferson graduates). By then the incoming freshman will probably have a lot more experience, and both Allen and Turner will be upperclassman.
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Oldfandepot2
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 996 Location: Northeast
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Posted: 04/11/15 9:36 pm ::: |
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Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception.
_________________ Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7860 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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Posted: 04/11/15 9:57 pm ::: |
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Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Fans of other teams, including UConn, who have bragged about their incoming freshmen, would do well to remember this man's wise words.
_________________ Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4053
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Posted: 04/11/15 10:11 pm ::: |
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summertime blues wrote: |
Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Fans of other teams, including UConn, who have bragged about their incoming freshmen, would do well to remember this man's wise words. |
Notre Dame fans have been a little spoiled the past 3 years, as we have started a freshman each year and had splendid results:
2012-13: Jewell Loyd
2013-14: Lindsay Allen
2014-15: Brianna Turner
UConn also didn't lose a game this year after moving Kia Nurse into the starting lineup. And who knows, South Carolina might have made the finals had they started A'ja Wilson.
Might one of Notre Dame's incoming freshmen snag a starting spot? Stranger things have happened, but I agree you and oldfandepot in general. Relying on freshmen is generally a dicey proposition.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/11/15 10:16 pm ::: |
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Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Heard it all before. Two years ago "can't rely on a freshman point guard". Last year can't rely on a freshman post."
It's an old wives tale.
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004 Posts: 1058 Location: PA
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Posted: 04/11/15 11:00 pm ::: |
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Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Generally, this is true. I would factor 3 things into this, though:
1. The players are highly rated and have international experience. That helps to ease the transition.
2. They're likely going to play in the SG spot, which, IMO, would be the easiest position for a freshman to come in and play (PG and Center, IMO, being the two hardest).
3. It's a case of 3 players covering 1 spot, so if one player has an off night, another freshman can come in and step up. That helps decrease the downside.
I know Patberg is actually a PG, but she could probably get playing time at SG to get playing experience as well.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012 Posts: 4053
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Posted: 04/11/15 11:09 pm ::: |
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CBiebel wrote: |
Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Generally, this is true. I would factor 3 things into this, though:
1. The players are highly rated and have international experience. That helps to ease the transition.
2. They're likely going to play in the SG spot, which, IMO, would be the easiest position for a freshman to come in and play (PG and Center, IMO, being the two hardest).
3. It's a case of 3 players covering 1 spot, so if one player has an off night, another freshman can come in and step up. That helps decrease the downside.
I know Patberg is actually a PG, but she could probably get playing time at SG to get playing experience as well. |
Muffet definitely claims Ali is a PG, but you're correct in that she could play either guard spot. MaxPreps (Clay Kallam) has her listed as a SG (http://www.maxpreps.com/news/XXWPIcfUukSW22CL-v3Vlw/top-8-shooting-guards-in-high-school-girls-basketball.htm) and Arike as a PG (http://www.maxpreps.com/news/sdnNR42I5Eu2cSAQPC_n0w/top-8-high-school-girls-basketball-point-guards.htm), but Muffet has always referred to Ali as a PG. I guess both of them are combo guards.
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uconnfan1
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 64
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Posted: 04/12/15 5:56 am ::: |
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When I first read that Ali won Max Prep Player of the Year, my first reaction was who is she? Ali is not one of the Names of the Top HS Seniors this year.
Then I did some looking at realized Ali is not ranked in the Top 10 in any of the Ranking Services. Also Clay had an article on the Top Shooting Guards in HS and she's #3 on his own list. http://www.maxpreps.com/news/XXWPIcfUukSW22CL-v3Vlw/top-8-shooting-guards-in-high-school-girls-basketball.htm Marina Mabrey a future teammate of her at Notre Dame was ranked #1
I have not found a list of the Finalist for the Award? Was there one? Would like to see what criteria they used to determine POY.
No Doubt she's a talented player, but she's not the best recruit ND has signed this year, thus not the POY.
quote="GlennMacGrady"]Good for Patberg.
Clay, was this a pick solely by you or were others on a panel?[/quote]
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9666
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Posted: 04/12/15 6:16 am ::: |
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Since Ali Patberg won MaxPrep National Player of the Year, but Katie Lou Samuelson won
Gatorade National Player-of-the-Year.
Naismith National Player-of-the-Year.
Morgan Wootten National Player-of-the-Year.
WBCA National Player-of-the-Year.
and was a member of the 2014 USA Women's Basketball U17 National Team, while Patberg was only invited to tryout, I think it is more accurate, if you are going to leave off the proper noun, to say that UConn got "the" National Player of the Year. But Notre Dame did get "a" National Player of the Year.
Last edited by tfan on 04/12/15 6:20 am; edited 4 times in total |
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9666
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Posted: 04/12/15 6:18 am ::: |
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Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year.
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NickDMB
Joined: 04 Mar 2015 Posts: 66
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Posted: 04/12/15 7:38 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Heard it all before. Two years ago "can't rely on a freshman point guard". Last year can't rely on a freshman post."
It's an old wives tale. |
It's not an old wives tale. You're fine in this case, mostly because (as cbiebel pointed out) you have three guards and on any given night one is going to be playing well. But generally players (especially point guards) perform far better after their freshmen years. I would say that Moriah Jefferson is the rule here, and Allen is the exception.
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Oldfandepot2
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 996 Location: Northeast
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Posted: 04/12/15 9:21 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Heard it all before. Two years ago "can't rely on a freshman point guard". Last year can't rely on a freshman post."
It's an old wives tale. |
All I am saying is freshman are a crap shoot. They have no body of work in the WCBB to determine what they are going to do. No one knows and to rely on them is asking an awful lot. It would be better served to look at the current roster for a game changer like Turner or Allen.
I don't know who said your quotes especially about Turner as I said last year of all the recruits I felt was physically ready for college among the bigs it was Turner.
With all freshman we are relying on an unknown. Period. At least we know what we have with our current rosters.
_________________ Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/12/15 9:55 am ::: |
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NickDMB wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
Sounds like that there is going to be an inordinate reliance on the unknown performance of freshman next year. Yes, Loyd is a big loss but I believe that someone or several on the team already has to step up and fill her shoes.
Just don't trust freshman. Turner and Stewart were and are the rare exception. |
Heard it all before. Two years ago "can't rely on a freshman point guard". Last year can't rely on a freshman post."
It's an old wives tale. |
It's not an old wives tale. You're fine in this case, mostly because (as cbiebel pointed out) you have three guards and on any given night one is going to be playing well. But generally players (especially point guards) perform far better after their freshmen years. I would say that Moriah Jefferson is the rule here, and Allen is the exception. |
Three years in a row ND has had a freshman starter. All three years ND made the FF. It's an old wive's tale. That your favorite fresman struggled doesn't change that.
Or maybe McGraw's just better at getting freshmen ready to play, instilling confidence, and adjusting the rest to work with the freshman's limitations.
But saying ND will struggle if a freshman starts is demonstrably false.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 04/12/15 10:01 am ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year. |
Like maybe the way she ripped through the state championship tournment, beating several nationally ranked teams, dominating play, and leading her team to the state title?
Have either of you seen her play?
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bballjunkie
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 785
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Posted: 04/12/15 10:27 am ::: |
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I have.
Re Indiana, not really a hotbed this year, they played Homestead in final who lost to Eluzabethtown, only team they played outside and they lost to Blackman by 12. Columbus only game was against Lawrence Nirth, and they were 1-1 against them. These teams did nt travel and didn't play a national schedule. Say no more!
This is problem with Clays rankings. He should penalize the teams that don't travel not reward them. And don't make excuses if they want to be ranked it's on them to play a tougher schedule.
Next Ckay likes to stir the pot. He knows his own CA system is brutal and yet loves to wind up his locals by not overly showing them love in case people think he is biased. SMS are pissed at him.
The strength of schedule on max preps shows how tough of a schedule the teams play, with no human interference. Columbus was ranked 18th, but you can see the team they beat in state Bedford barely beat Fairmont ohio by 2 in Indiana and they were only ranked 1245 nationally.
Next Patberg is a PG she is not athletic like Allen or as Arike but Arike is not a PG. I would say Patberg is the smarter player and may fit NDs system better.
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uconnfan1
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 64
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Posted: 04/12/15 10:40 am ::: |
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I'll admit I haven't seen her play and have only watch a few videos of highlights. However IMHO based on her Highlight Video that Max Prep is using to announce her as their POY, she's not POY.
BTW, I'm not thinking that Katie Lou Samuelson should have won it either. In the running yes. I'm not sure who should have won it. I"m in the camp that thinks Napheesa Collier is this years Best UConn recruit. She's more college ready. It will be interesting to see how all three UConn recruits develop.
ArtBest23 wrote: |
tfan wrote: |
Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year. |
Like maybe the way she ripped through the state championship tournment, beating several nationally ranked teams, dominating play, and leading her team to the state title?
Have either of you seen her play? |
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bballjunkie
Joined: 12 Aug 2014 Posts: 785
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Posted: 04/12/15 10:47 am ::: |
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But you sound as off as the ND people. Collier is not a better recruit than KLS or Durr or Shepard or Cooper. She also has played nobody in high school. She played nobody in FIBA except a bunch of JV level players. The knock on Collier in club, which btw she didn't play at the elite level either, is that she struggles in open court with the ball and cannot get an outside shot off when guarded. Slow and low release. She is great around the basket as she has long arms and really hustles but she has little in the way of counter moves or ball skills like Shepard et Al.
You need to watch players play and compete against elite players, not against low level or in all star games.
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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Posted: 04/12/15 10:51 am ::: Lol |
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I'm thinking Clay didn't wanna deal with a certain group if he didn't pick an ND player. Can you hear the bias toward Uconn being shouted in the rafters if Rebs own Ckay did that hehehe.
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Oldfandepot2
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 996 Location: Northeast
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Posted: 04/12/15 11:02 am ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
tfan wrote: |
Yeah, the same group that rates her #3 at her position, rates her #1 overall. But they are two different dates. The #3 came in January and the #1 yesterday so maybe she played outstanding at the end of her senior year. |
I have, she is good but not the kind of good you are going to get w
Like maybe the way she ripped through the state championship tournment, beating several nationally ranked teams, dominating play, and leading her team to the state title?
Have either of you seen her play? |
I have seen Ali play. She is good, very good. I liked Jackie Young better whom I also saw play. What several nationally ranked teams did Ali's HS team beat and their ranking?
_________________ Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
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