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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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 Posted: 03/02/15 9:22 am ::: |
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| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| I almost feel like we need to mention hires like the barely 20 yr old Summitt kid again in this thread, who happens to be a male. But I guess we probably beat that horse to death in another thread. However, that is pretty relevant in the context of this thread as well. |
You meant the 23 year old Tyler Summitt. The reason that him being mentioned in this thread is not the least bit helpful is simple really. You can't look at a unique situation that results in the hire of one individual and draw conclusions based on that circumstance alone. The hire made perfect sense for La Tech. Every hire is a bit of a gamble, but this was one gamble that La Tech had very little to lose and a lot to gain by making.
If you had a number of positions being filled by young males that did not have a unique background and were simply being hired over more qualified female applicants, you would have an interesting discussion as to what the motivation for the hires could be. This is not one of those circumstances. |
I seem to recall a certain guy being hired by Arkansas as well. That was a unique situation. So yeah, I guess we could just rule out all the "unique" situations and then there's no longer a bigger issue.
I don't feel like delving deep into the Tyler Summitt situation again. Feel free to locate the thread where it was discussed at great lenght.
The fact still remains that he was a male hired over countless other more qualified potential female candidates. He is still a part of this situation regardless of whatever special circumstances exist. He took a WBB HC position over females...isn't that the topic at hand?
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 03/02/15 12:12 pm ::: |
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The SEC currently has more female than male head coaches, but Matt Insell was hired to replace a female, and Ole Miss has only had one female coach, Carol Ross. Mississippi State Hired Vic Schaefer to replace Sharon Fanning-Otis, but they're about even and seem to alternate. Kentucky had mostly women until the present coach. TAMU the same. Tennessee, of course, hasn't had a male head coach. Neither has Florida. Vanderbilt had only males until the present one and were most successful under a male coach (Jim Foster). Mizzou has had only female coaches. My cursory search did not turn up stats on Arkansas but I do remember Gary Blair.
I still contend that it's not whether the coach is male or female, it's what they are like as a person and how good they are at what they do. I would rather my kid play for Jim Foster or Matt Insell, for instance, than for Robin Pingeton. (Insell isn't winning a lot yet, but he seems to be forging a team down there, and knowing something about his dad, I have some idea what he might be like.) Or Tyler Summitt, because I know what he's about.
I can also understand the constraints of family life on a coaching career, especially for young female coaches, because my own career impinged a *lot* on family time. Fortunately my kids were older when I embarked on mine, but if my late ex hadn't been as accommodating as he was, it would have been very difficult. As it was, things were not easy for me or for any of us....and I wasn't even on the road a lot! I can imagine it being quite difficult for the mothers of teenagers, too.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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larmarch5
Joined: 31 Jul 2014
Posts: 424
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| Posted: 03/05/15 7:18 pm ::: |
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| Regarding the history of WBB and Title IX, could it be that as the pay has increased, more men are applying for the jobs? Like nursing, once the pay increased, more men got into nursing.
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 03/07/15 9:46 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Matt Insell was hired to replace a female, and Ole Miss has only had one female coach, Carol Ross. |
Just to be clear, Matt Insell was hired to replace Adrian Wiggins, who never coached a full season thanks to Kenya Larkins and her husband. Wiggins replaced Renee Ladner, a female, who replaced Carol Ross.
Lin Dunn was also briefly the head coach there before before Van Chancellor, so they've had a few female coaches at Ole Miss.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 03/07/15 11:36 pm ::: |
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| Phil wrote: |
| BallState1984 wrote: |
| Call me old school, but I am convinced women need to coach women. |
Do you feel the same way about teachers/professors? If not, what's the difference? |
College teams are segregated by sex. College classes are not. Coaches go in locker rooms, while professors do not.
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Dennis1361
Joined: 12 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/09/15 11:30 pm ::: |
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| There is only one answer and that is as the sport increased in popularity it began to pay better and began to attract male coaching applicants and most of the hiring was done by males. In short sexism! Why no women coaching men's bb? Same answer sexism!
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CalwbbFan
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 03/10/15 7:44 pm ::: |
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| Phil wrote: |
| BallState1984 wrote: |
| Call me old school, but I am convinced women need to coach women. |
Do you feel the same way about teachers/professors? If not, what's the difference? |
False equivalency....my question to you in response would be-Why is it ok for women teach young men in college classrooms yet they are generally not considered to be qualified to coach them on the basketball court?
If we are truly for equal opportunity in collegiate coaching there's much work that remains do be done. Men have many more options when it comes to viable coaching opportunities. Obviously the pool of male coaches is larger, but so too are the number of jobs open to them. We need to continue to support efforts to attract more women to the coaching ranks (at every level). I do believe that female coaches can be great role models for young women and that fact is worth considering. In a world where men still dominate on many levels it's nice to offer young women the opportunity to have legit female role models.
This doesn't mean men shouldn't coach women. It means we should work to expand opportunities for female coaches and nurture those who may be inclined to make coaching their life's work.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 03/10/15 10:24 pm ::: |
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| CalwbbFan wrote: |
| Phil wrote: |
| BallState1984 wrote: |
| Call me old school, but I am convinced women need to coach women. |
Do you feel the same way about teachers/professors? If not, what's the difference? |
False equivalency....my question to you in response would be-Why is it ok for women teach young men in college classrooms yet they are generally not considered to be qualified to coach them on the basketball court?
If we are truly for equal opportunity in collegiate coaching there's much work that remains do be done. Men have many more options when it comes to viable coaching opportunities. Obviously the pool of male coaches is larger, but so too are the number of jobs open to them. We need to continue to support efforts to attract more women to the coaching ranks (at every level). I do believe that female coaches can be great role models for young women and that fact is worth considering. In a world where men still dominate on many levels it's nice to offer young women the opportunity to have legit female role models.
This doesn't mean men shouldn't coach women. It means we should work to expand opportunities for female coaches and nurture those who may be inclined to make coaching their life's work. |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. This way it would allow more females to get more experience as they move up the ranks. Unfortunately a lot of schools can't afford to pay for those positions, or the tuition (in the case of graduate assistants). The WBCA has a program called "So You Want To be A Coach" that is for women's basketball players who have finished their collegiate eligibility or just graduated. I don't know how many who have gone into that program have gone on to coaching, but it sounds like a good program and a nice starting point for those interested.
http://www.wbca.org/pages/EDUCATION_so-program
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FS02
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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Location: Husky (west coast) Country
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| Posted: 03/11/15 12:38 am ::: |
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I think people are trying to develop female coaches and that is one key component. But you have to wonder why they can't even get minor assistant jobs in MBB, that's why the Becky Hammon thing is so big. How many women even apply for those jobs?
I think the barrier will slowly erode, but there are always good ol' boys who resist the future kicking and screaming. They'll be phased out, but it takes so long. The supremacy of football makes it worse.
I also think men getting big jobs in WBB, while women can't get any jobs in MBB, is totally unfair--but also shows that WBB is becoming a more serious endeavor. Sometimes you take one step back to move two steps forward.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 03/11/15 9:56 am ::: |
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Just to repeat, because I think it's important: At the high school level, pretty much every school is desperate to get female coaches for female teams -- but the pool of candidates is pretty much zero.
For my program, I can find 10 guys who'd like to help out without too much effort; finding a woman who has the time and interest to coach in high school is almost impossible.
And there are several prominent female coaches who are role models in all areas of the country, so it's not like a young woman interested in getting into coaching is driven away because she can't see others like her succeeding.
Whatever the reason, the pool of female candidates for coaching positions at the high school level is much, much smaller than that of male candidates -- and starting out at high school is a very good way to prepare one's self for a career in coaching.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 03/11/15 2:19 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 03/11/15 2:28 pm ::: |
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| FS02 wrote: |
I also think men getting big jobs in WBB, while women can't get any jobs in MBB, is totally unfair |
It's only "unfair" if there are women candidates who are applying for the position, are the best qualified for the position, and are being passed over because they are women. In this whole thread I'm still waiting for examples where that has happened.
I asked before for some specific examples where men have gotten coaching jobs (and I'll clarify that to include men's or women's teams) where there were better qualified women who wanted that job. Really. Provide some examples.
And no, don't throw out Tyler Summit's name. He got hired because of his name, not his sex. I'm sure there were better qualified men and women who got passed over for that one. It was a non-discriminatory bad hire.
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newkid
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
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Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: 03/11/15 3:09 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| FS02 wrote: |
I also think men getting big jobs in WBB, while women can't get any jobs in MBB, is totally unfair |
It's only "unfair" if there are women candidates who are applying for the position, are the best qualified for the position, and are being passed over because they are women. In this whole thread I'm still waiting for examples where that has happened.
I asked before for some specific examples where men have gotten coaching jobs (and I'll clarify that to include men's or women's teams) where there were better qualified women who wanted that job. Really. Provide some examples.
And no, don't throw out Tyler Summit's name. He got hired because of his name, not his sex. I'm sure there were better qualified men and women who got passed over for that one. It was a non-discriminatory bad hire. |
I'm not super-knowledgeable about coaching, but in areas about which I am knowledgeable, the issue is that the sexism that prevents women from advancing happens at a much earlier, lower level. You are correct that is not very often the case that an obviously more qualified woman is passed over for an obviously less qualified man. Instead, it's that the pool of qualified women is quite limited because of sexism that occurs way down the chain.
At the same time, in my experience, Clay is correct that women, as a group, often make different choices than men, as a group. I think it's really hard to parse out how much of that is a result of our generally sexist environment and how much is just plain different priorities, not attributable to learned sexism.
Very complicated topic. But I think it is foolish to contend that sexism is not at work at all.
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FS02
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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Location: Husky (west coast) Country
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| Posted: 03/11/15 4:23 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| FS02 wrote: |
I also think men getting big jobs in WBB, while women can't get any jobs in MBB, is totally unfair |
It's only "unfair" if there are women candidates who are applying for the position, are the best qualified for the position, and are being passed over because they are women. In this whole thread I'm still waiting for examples where that has happened. |
It would be pretty hard to come up with that information unless someone has done a study. Maybe I should have stressed that this barrier is a only a hypothetical situation, as far as I know, but I am inclined to believe that it exists.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 03/11/15 4:55 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| FS02 wrote: |
I also think men getting big jobs in WBB, while women can't get any jobs in MBB, is totally unfair |
It's only "unfair" if there are women candidates who are applying for the position, are the best qualified for the position, and are being passed over because they are women. In this whole thread I'm still waiting for examples where that has happened.
I asked before for some specific examples where men have gotten coaching jobs (and I'll clarify that to include men's or women's teams) where there were better qualified women who wanted that job. Really. Provide some examples.
And no, don't throw out Tyler Summit's name. He got hired because of his name, not his sex. I'm sure there were better qualified men and women who got passed over for that one. It was a non-discriminatory bad hire. |
Kindly add IMO to your last sentence. LA Tech finished in the middle of the conference and earned a first round bye in the conference tourney, which isn't bad considering all he had were hand-me-down players who had finished in the cellar last year. More importantly, nobody left and all the players bought into his system. You just don't like Tyler, and you've made that perfectly clear from the beginning.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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Dennis1361
Joined: 12 Nov 2005
Posts: 248
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| Posted: 03/11/15 8:04 pm ::: |
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| Everyone seems to avoid the issue that there are NO women head coaches for mens teams in college bb. That is sexism pure and simple
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 03/11/15 10:11 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal. |
Why do you think it would be illegal?
I see it only illegal if some judge - in his or her personal opinion - ruled that regulation illegal.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 03/11/15 10:20 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal. |
Regulate was probably the wrong word, but I meant make it possible for more schools to have those positions, a lot of schools don't because of budgets. Obviously it would be a difficult process, but it could be a possibility. I think a lot coaches would be willing to hire their own former players or other former players they coached against or even recruited, if they could bring them in at a lower level position so they could learn as opposed to bringing them in as an assistant coach their first year out of college.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 03/11/15 10:24 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| FS02 wrote: |
I also think men getting big jobs in WBB, while women can't get any jobs in MBB, is totally unfair |
It's only "unfair" if there are women candidates who are applying for the position, are the best qualified for the position, and are being passed over because they are women. In this whole thread I'm still waiting for examples where that has happened.
I asked before for some specific examples where men have gotten coaching jobs (and I'll clarify that to include men's or women's teams) where there were better qualified women who wanted that job. Really. Provide some examples.
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Do schools publish a list of who applied and got turned down? If so, can you provide links so we can go over it. I think we might be able to find a more qualified candidate than Jimmy Dykes. He was hired by Arkansas after not having coached in 23 years. He had 7 years experience as an assistant coach coaching men from 1984 to 1991. I suspect there were candidates with a better resume for a women's head coaching position than that out there.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/11/15 10:49 pm ::: |
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| The NCAA should adopt a version of the NFL's Rooney Rule for women.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 03/11/15 11:22 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal. |
Regulate was probably the wrong word, but I meant make it possible for more schools to have those positions, a lot of schools don't because of budgets. Obviously it would be a difficult process, but it could be a possibility. I think a lot coaches would be willing to hire their own former players or other former players they coached against or even recruited, if they could bring them in at a lower level position so they could learn as opposed to bringing them in as an assistant coach their first year out of college. |
Agree. Do the rules allow one or two graduate assistant coaches in basketball the way they do in football, or do they count against the four coach max? I think allowing a couple extra grad asst coaches would be a great way to get more former players a start in coaching. They should change the rules to allow this if they don't already.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 03/11/15 11:30 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| The NCAA should adopt a version of the NFL's Rooney Rule for women. |
They could do that. I'm not sure that many people think the Rooney Rule has accomplished much other than producing some courtesy interviews.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 03/11/15 11:48 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
I think one possible solution is to regulate more positions, like graduate assistants, director of basketball operations, video coordinators. |
Regulate? Do you mean like require those positions be filled with women, or set quotas?
You realize, I hope, that would be illegal. |
Why do you think it would be illegal?
I see it only illegal if some judge - in his or her personal opinion - ruled that regulation illegal. |
Is this post supposed to be serious?
"Some judge". Right. Like the Supreme Court. But what do they know. 
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If it made it to the old politically aligned fogies on the Supreme Court then it would mean that multiple judges along the way ruled it legal which is incongruous with your eye rolling cock-surety.
And yes, what do they know, as their opinions are clearly connected to what party the president who nominated them was part of.
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Seriously. You might want to go read up on Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and with respect to state universities, the Equal Protection Clause of the US Constitution.
This isn't really a close call. |
Here is the Post Office policy on hiring:
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670 Diversity, Equal Employment Opportunity, and Affirmative Action
671 Diversity Overview
All employees share responsibility for achieving the Postal Services corporate goals for responding to the voices of the customer, the employee, and the business. To create the required balance between employee satisfaction and customer satisfaction, the Postal Service must employ strategies and values that promote fairness and opportunities, instill pride, and enhance safety in the workplace.
For such efforts to be successful, the Postal Service must manage the diversity of its workforce so as to build an inclusive environment that respects the uniqueness of every individual and encourages the contributions of people from different backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. This management of diversity must be reflected in recruitment, selection, promotion (including succession planning and opportunities for training and development), and retention of employees.
Integrating these values and strategies into the corporate culture requires leaderships full commitment. |
The regulation wouldn't have to limit women to coaching women. And it doesn't have to be a regulation - just a policy - like the Post Office. But either way, it could do just like the Post Office and say that diversity must be reflected in the coaching ranks as they are in society. The universities would be free to choose whether they want to hire the female coaches for men's or women's teams. And they would also be hiring a lot more minority coaches. California schools would be hiring a majority of minority coaches. Which is what the post office does - and I haven't heard about the Supreme Court ruling negatively on that.
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Seriously. You might want to go read up on Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and with respect to state universities, the Equal Protection Clause of the US Constitution.
This isn't really a close call. |
Not in the minds of the Post Office. They actively hire minorities and women in order to have a diverse work force. The legal documents you cite hasn't stopped them. Don't see why you think it would stop universities.
Last edited by tfan on 03/11/15 11:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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I do remember that, now that you mention him, but I think Ole Miss would just as soon forget. I don't remember Renee Ladner though, nor do I recall Lin Dunn ever being there. The first I remember of Lin Dunn is Purdue. Oh well, we get old.