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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18032 Location: Queens
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Posted: 02/22/15 9:27 pm ::: I need a ref. |
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Here's the scenario that played out today at St. John's:
Defensive team is way, way into the penalty. Offensive team is in the double bonus. Defensive team commits a common foul, sending offensive player to the line. Offensive player misses the first free throw and immediately barges into the lane to attempt a putback, having apparently forgotten that it's a two-shot foul. Putback is missed.
What actually happened next is in white text below, but what should have happened next?
Offensive player forfeited second free throw attempt. Scorekeeper credited offensive player with a missed FT and an offensive rebound. Offensive team was granted inbounds underneath their own basket.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8950
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Posted: 02/22/15 9:52 pm ::: |
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The ball was to remain dead after the first of the two free throw, so I'd say nothing more than a little embarrassment for the shooter.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8950
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Posted: 02/22/15 9:54 pm ::: Re: I need a ref. |
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Queenie wrote: |
Here's the scenario that played out today at St. John's:
Defensive team is way, way into the penalty. Offensive team is in the double bonus. Defensive team commits a common foul, sending offensive player to the line. Offensive player misses the first free throw and immediately barges into the lane to attempt a putback, having apparently forgotten that it's a two-shot foul. Putback is missed.
What actually happened next is in white text below, but what should have happened next? |
How the hell did they come up with that?
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32336
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Posted: 02/22/15 9:55 pm ::: |
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Yeah, if she went into the lane too soon, that FT would be null and void, but she still should have a second one if you're sure it was a two shot foul. (IMO)
edit: the only way it could play out the way you say is if it were in fact a one and one, O player legally entered the lane, missed the shot, got the rebound and the whistle blew because the refs were messed up about whether or not it was a two shot foul. Since she had possession when the 'inadvertent' whistle halted action, the o team would have the ball out of bounds.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8950
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Posted: 02/22/15 10:04 pm ::: |
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Here's my additional comment on what happened, (below in white for those that still want to play along).
If that's the true rule, then every player that is shooting a two shot foul should bust into the lane if they see that they are going to miss. What is there to lose?
Player gets a rebound added to her stats and the ball out of bounds? Wow!
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8950
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Posted: 02/22/15 10:18 pm ::: |
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Was it at 1:06 of the first?
Let me ask, did you actually see it happen or are you going off of the play-by-play? I'm just wondering if you're going by p-b-p, it might be wrong (unlikely, but just wondering.)
But, yeah, that looks not right to me.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8231 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 02/23/15 1:37 am ::: |
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Dead ball should continue and shooter should take second FTA. Same result even if shooter committed a violation by crossing the FTL before the ball hit the rim.
I think all posts should be made in white. It will make for a very clean looking forum. |
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ripleydc
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 4778 Location: Washington, DC
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013 Posts: 7851 Location: Shenandoah Valley
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ball4life
Joined: 26 Jun 2012 Posts: 199
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Posted: 02/23/15 2:40 pm ::: |
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I could see absolutely nothing in white from my iPhone. But here is my response below in disappearing ink.
Talking to an official close to the situation that was there he said what happened was
.
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mred
Joined: 19 Mar 2007 Posts: 256
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18032 Location: Queens
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Posted: 02/23/15 8:42 pm ::: |
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Ex-Ref wrote: |
Was it at 1:06 of the first?
Let me ask, did you actually see it happen or are you going off of the play-by-play? I'm just wondering if you're going by p-b-p, it might be wrong (unlikely, but just wondering.)
But, yeah, that looks not right to me. |
I was there, watching everyone on the lane stand there and stare at Aliyyah like she'd grown an extra head. I nearly fell off the bleachers laughing my ass off. God love Aliyyah.
I put it in white because I didn't want people's opinions biased by hearing what happened before they answered.
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 12851 Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Posted: 02/24/15 1:32 pm ::: |
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On a 2-shot foul, the only (official) thing that should happen, after the miss, is the shooting of the 2nd FT.
_________________ Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8231 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 02/24/15 2:50 pm ::: |
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Queenie wrote: |
Ex-Ref wrote: |
Was it at 1:06 of the first?
Let me ask, did you actually see it happen or are you going off of the play-by-play? I'm just wondering if you're going by p-b-p, it might be wrong (unlikely, but just wondering.)
But, yeah, that looks not right to me. |
I was there, watching everyone on the lane stand there and stare at Aliyyah like she'd grown an extra head. I nearly fell off the bleachers laughing my ass off. God love Aliyyah.
I put it in white because I didn't want people's opinions biased by hearing what happened before they answered. |
At 1:06 of the first half, the official box score says Aliyyah Handford scored on a layup, and also got fouled while the clock was still at 1:06. It then shows her missing the FTA and getting a rebound, all still at 1:06.
It's difficult to interpret this as anything other than Handford getting fouled while making a layup, which would have generated a one shot foul. Did something other than that happen at 1:06 to get Handford to the line? |
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 18032 Location: Queens
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Posted: 02/24/15 7:42 pm ::: |
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I think Aliyyah missed the lay-up. Then again, the official box score matches my personal one. So it's possible I'm a doofus... but so was everyone else in the building but Aliyyah.
That being said, in the scenario where it's a one-shot foul, why did no one else from either team attempt to rebound? And how would SJU have ended up with the ball after the dead ball?
_________________ Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8950
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Posted: 02/24/15 10:32 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Queenie wrote: |
Ex-Ref wrote: |
Was it at 1:06 of the first?
Let me ask, did you actually see it happen or are you going off of the play-by-play? I'm just wondering if you're going by p-b-p, it might be wrong (unlikely, but just wondering.)
But, yeah, that looks not right to me. |
I was there, watching everyone on the lane stand there and stare at Aliyyah like she'd grown an extra head. I nearly fell off the bleachers laughing my ass off. God love Aliyyah.
I put it in white because I didn't want people's opinions biased by hearing what happened before they answered. |
At 1:06 of the first half, the official box score says Aliyyah Handford scored on a layup, and also got fouled while the clock was still at 1:06. It then shows her missing the FTA and getting a rebound, all still at 1:06.
It's difficult to interpret this as anything other than Handford getting fouled while making a layup, which would have generated a one shot foul. Did something other than that happen at 1:06 to get Handford to the line? |
You're right. I didn't look up far enough.
I just looked at the video. She did make the layup and was fouled. On the free throw a G'town player started to come in and block her out, but stopped when no one else came in. I played it back several times to see if I could hear the announcer and see what he said, but the TV guys talked over him.
I did see that the official lined up beside the player in the first spot so that's probably what messed things up. When it's the last shot )or only one to begin with), they go to the baseline.
I'm not sure if there's some weird delay in timing in what's being seen on the court and how the clock is shown on screen or if the clock operator is messed up, but there's some weird stuff going on. On the inbounds play before this happened, the clock didn't start for a few seconds, 2-3 maybe. After the foul, the clock ran down from 1:12 to 1:06. The more I look at it, the more confused I get!
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8950
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Posted: 02/24/15 10:43 pm ::: |
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Queenie wrote: |
I think Aliyyah missed the lay-up. Then again, the official box score matches my personal one. So it's possible I'm a doofus... but so was everyone else in the building but Aliyyah.
That being said, in the scenario where it's a one-shot foul, why did no one else from either team attempt to rebound? And how would SJU have ended up with the ball after the dead ball? |
No one tried to because the ref was in the wrong spot giving the impression that it was a two shot foul. They gave SJU the ball because of the rebound by Aliyyah. (I thought that they may have gone to the arrow sine it really was an official's error, but it doesn't look like it.)
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cattekin
Joined: 26 Apr 2007 Posts: 252 Location: San Mateo, Calif.
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Posted: 02/25/15 1:52 pm ::: Re: I need a ref. |
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Queenie wrote: |
what should have happened next? |
I asked Larry Sheppard, WCC officials observer, 1994 NCAA official of the year. He confirmed what folks said here:
"I've seen that error several times, probably because the shooter either wasn't listening or blanked out.
Ruling - it doesn't matter if the shooter went across the line prior to the ball hitting the rim. The shot was missed and the shooter should be given the second free throw. If there was any contact resulting from her entry into the lane, it would be ignored unless the contact was flagrant or deemed unsportsmanlike."
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