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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 11/22/14 11:05 pm ::: |
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[quote="linkster"][quote="ArtBest23"]
| linkster wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
What a fraud. You conveniently lop off #11 UNC and #12 Louisville, and ignore the ACC tourney, in order to strain to make a non-existent "point". Does UConn play anyone else in the top 100? You'll probably need a chiropracter after those contortions.
Even. Yeah. Thanks for the laugh. |
Here's what I said, nothing more. "Even Steven as far as elite games."
And you sang this same tune last year. |
From a seeding perspective, the notion that the games against the elite teams are the only ones that count is incorrect. There's no doubt that Notre Dame will have many more games against RPI top 25 teams than UConn, although it's not Geno's fault at all. This was true last year, too, but since UConn beat everybody AND had Louisville in conference, the committee could easily justify a top seed. Given the conference schedule, it gets harder to justify a high seed, and particularly a #1, if UConn doesn't beat everybody. That's just a fact.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/22/14 11:21 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
Reading is fundamental. LOL |
Yes. Yes it is.
| linkster wrote: |
| I saw nothing about seeding. |
Hmmmmmmmm. Really? Nothing? Nothing about seeding? Nothing at all?
| Howee wrote: |
I can't imagine that they'll drop below a 2 seed, but even if they earn a 1, I doubt it'll be of the caliber as the last couple of #1s they've earned. |
| beknighted wrote: |
| Anyway, I agree with the main point, and with the suggestion that UConn can't really afford a lot of stumbles (maybe even more than one more stumble) if they want a #1 seed. |
| Happycappie25 wrote: |
Are they still a #1 seed...yes...can they reclaim #1 overall....possibly tho ND and SC may have something to say about it and with such a low SOS thanks to the AAC...you may very well have an issue should they lose there. Especially if Stanford hits some growing pains.
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| myrtle wrote: |
I agree pretty much with HappyC here.
UConn hasn't a lot of room for mistakes from here on out. If, which I don't expect to happen, they lose to both Notre Dame and South Carolina, then they would have little to show to get a #1 seed. That would be the most amazing result of the year. I can tell you nobody but nobody would want to be the #1 seed in a bracket where UConn was #2! If, on the other hand, they beat both, then they are probably #1 overall again. So let's say they beat one convincingly and lose to the other - what then? They're probably still a #1 seed as long as they win out otherwise. |
| Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
I believe that UConn will earn a 1-seed this year, mostly because teams usually lose more games than you expect them to lose, and a UConn team with even 3 losses will get a 1-seed because of the strength of their OOC schedule. This season, with its apparent parity, should have 1-seed(s) with 4 or more losses. (I also will be surprised if UConn loses 2 more games.)
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I doubt if that's correct. The reality is that they only play six real games all year (Stanford, ND, DePaul, UCLA, Duke and S Car, and if UCLA doesn't turn things around, that number could shrink to 5.) I doubt there is any chance they can drop 3 of those six and still get a 1 seed because wins over Houston and SMU aren't going to offset those losses.
They have to win.
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So now that you see all the things you evidently missed, why not try joining in the discussion. Go ahead. Try it. Tell us how many losses you think UConn could have and still get a #1 see. Articulate a rational honest position, explain it, defend it, discuss. Save the trolling for your banter with Tribble.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/22/14 11:30 pm ::: |
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| Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
| Art, did you ever think that every post is not a retort to you. Hello. Histrionic? One of the first things I was taught in the very first history class in college simply because b follows a doesn't mean a caused or created b. Geez. Lighten up. |
That's why there's a "Quote" function so that everyone will clearly understand to whom you are responding. Otherwise one fair inference is that you are responding to the post immediately preceding your own.
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Oldfandepot2
Joined: 05 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/22/14 11:52 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
| Art, did you ever think that every post is not a retort to you. Hello. Histrionic? One of the first things I was taught in the very first history class in college simply because b follows a doesn't mean a caused or created b. Geez. Lighten up. |
That's why there's a "Quote" function so that everyone will clearly understand to whom you are responding. Otherwise one fair inference is that you are responding to the post immediately preceding your own. |
This time a did not cause b. Just other thoughts.
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Last edited by Oldfandepot2 on 11/22/14 11:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 11/22/14 11:57 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
| Art, did you ever think that every post is not a retort to you. Hello. Histrionic? One of the first things I was taught in the very first history class in college simply because b follows a doesn't mean a caused or created b. Geez. Lighten up. |
That's why there's a "Quote" function so that everyone will clearly understand to whom you are responding. Otherwise one fair inference is that you are responding to the post immediately preceding your own. |
Uh, not really. People post without reading the entire thread all the time, and not everybody cares to use the quote function, not to mention that I might be replying to post a, but while I'm composing my perfect retort two other people post and suddenly there's post b and post c between post a and my post d.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 11/22/14 11:58 pm ::: |
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[quote="beknighted"][quote="linkster"]
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
What a fraud. You conveniently lop off #11 UNC and #12 Louisville, and ignore the ACC tourney, in order to strain to make a non-existent "point". Does UConn play anyone else in the top 100? You'll probably need a chiropracter after those contortions.
Even. Yeah. Thanks for the laugh. |
Here's what I said, nothing more. "Even Steven as far as elite games."
And you sang this same tune last year. |
From a seeding perspective, the notion that the games against the elite teams are the only ones that count is incorrect. There's no doubt that Notre Dame will have many more games against RPI top 25 teams than UConn, although it's not Geno's fault at all. This was true last year, too, but since UConn beat everybody AND had Louisville in conference, the committee could easily justify a top seed. Given the conference schedule, it gets harder to justify a high seed, and particularly a #1, if UConn doesn't beat everybody. That's just a fact. |
My response wasn't about seeding. It was about the year and a half drone about UConn's schedule. I thought the discussion ended last April but I see it continues. I thought I made my point about seeding but I'll restate it:
I don't give a rat's ass where the committee puts UConn or how they are seeded. (Well that's not completely true because I have tickets to Albany) The only advantage to a 1 seed is avoiding the other 3 so-called "best teams" until the FF. IMO teams (and fans) that look for an easy path to the FF are wishing themselves into the FF. UConn's RPI, even if they win out, may not be among the top 4 or even 6. I stand by my comment that if UConn gets a 2 it will be the 1 in their region who will be screaming unfair. IMO there isn't a team UConn can't whip on a neutral court with competent refs. And that's not to say they are unbeatable. But beating 3 one seeds instead of 2 is no big deal. Frankly I would trade a one seed if UConn could be the 2 in a region where Tenn got the one.
And in a general comment not directed at any one person I am always amazed that every time UConn loses a game the gravediggers come out, glasses half empty and with eulogies in hand. I guess that's to be expected. LOL
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Oldfandepot2
Joined: 05 Jul 2013
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/23/14 12:08 am ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
Uh, not really. People post without reading the entire thread all the time,
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Maybe, but if they can't be bothered to read any of the thread they shouldn't make idiotic comments about how "reading is fundamental."
| beknighted wrote: |
not everybody cares to use the quote function, not to mention that I might be replying to post a, but while I'm composing my perfect retort two other people post and suddenly there's post b and post c between post a and my post d . |
That happens. But when that happens to me I go back and edit my post to include the quotes to prevent misunderstandings. If one can't be bothered to include quotes, then they shouldn't get upset when the preceding poster assumes the following reply was directed at them.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 11/23/14 10:26 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
Uh, not really. People post without reading the entire thread all the time,
. |
Maybe, but if they can't be bothered to read any of the thread they shouldn't make idiotic comments about how "reading is fundamental."
| beknighted wrote: |
not everybody cares to use the quote function, not to mention that I might be replying to post a, but while I'm composing my perfect retort two other people post and suddenly there's post b and post c between post a and my post d . |
That happens. But when that happens to me I go back and edit my post to include the quotes to prevent misunderstandings. If one can't be bothered to include quotes, then they shouldn't get upset when the preceding poster assumes the following reply was directed at them. |
I'm going to try to avoid my natural inclination towards snark here. Instead, I'll just say you're proposing a standard that pretty much nobody else thinks applies. You shouldn't be surprised - or, perhaps more to the point, annoyed - when other people don't conform to it. Just for instance, I would guess that you're the only person on RebKell who goes back and edits posts the way you describe.
Also, referring to people as idiotic (or pick any other random insult) doesn't tend to make them think highly of you or your arguments, even when you're right. You may not care, but it's a point worth considering, and even Aristotle noted that the reputation of the speaker affects how an argument is perceived.
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Orion
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 11/23/14 3:34 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| From a seeding perspective, the notion that the games against the elite teams are the only ones that count is incorrect. There's no doubt that Notre Dame will have many more games against RPI top 25 teams than UConn, although it's not Geno's fault at all. This was true last year, too, but since UConn beat everybody AND had Louisville in conference, the committee could easily justify a top seed. Given the conference schedule, it gets harder to justify a high seed, and particularly a #1, if UConn doesn't beat everybody. That's just a fact. |
My response wasn't about seeding. It was about the year and a half drone about UConn's schedule. I thought the discussion ended last April but I see it continues. I thought I made my point about seeding but I'll restate it:
I don't give a rat's ass where the committee puts UConn or how they are seeded. (Well that's not completely true because I have tickets to Albany) The only advantage to a 1 seed is avoiding the other 3 so-called "best teams" until the FF. IMO teams (and fans) that look for an easy path to the FF are wishing themselves into the FF. UConn's RPI, even if they win out, may not be among the top 4 or even 6. I stand by my comment that if UConn gets a 2 it will be the 1 in their region who will be screaming unfair. IMO there isn't a team UConn can't whip on a neutral court with competent refs. And that's not to say they are unbeatable. But beating 3 one seeds instead of 2 is no big deal. Frankly I would trade a one seed if UConn could be the 2 in a region where Tenn got the one.
And in a general comment not directed at any one person I am always amazed that every time UConn loses a game the gravediggers come out, glasses half empty and with eulogies in hand. I guess that's to be expected. LOL |
New season, different facts. Last year, UConn had Louisville and Rutgers (okay, maybe Rutgers turned out not to be that big a help); this year, the conference is notably weaker.
FWIW, my take is that a UConn team that gets a 2 seed will be a team that deserves a 2 seed. While I don't doubt that the 1 seed in that region could complain, I'd say that's a dumb complaint. There really are significant benefits to being a 1 seed - for instance, you get the 8/9 game winner in the 2nd round rather than the 7/10 game winner, and history shows that almost no teams lose to the 8/9 winner while a fair number do lose to the 7/10 winner, and of course you face the 4/5/12/13 winner in the Sweet 16 rather than the 3/6/11/14 winner. And, absolutely, fans and coaches look for the easy path to the FF because they want to be in the FF, not watching some other team there. It's nice to say "you have to beat whoever's in front of you," but in reality your odds really are better if you face worse opposition along the way.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 11/24/14 10:06 am ::: |
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For elite teams, it's a six-game season ... well, maybe six.
The odds say you won't play your A game for six games in a row, so one big key to winning a national title is to find a way to win when you're not playing at A-game level. Obviously, that's a lot easier if your opposition isn't as good, so a higher seed helps.
Then again, that assumes that there's a significant different between a six-seed and an eight-seed, and that may not be the case this year. A lot of it is luck, too, as a banged-up six seed might not be nearly the threat that a fully healthy eight seed is.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 11/24/14 2:12 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
FWIW, my take is that a UConn team that gets a 2 seed will be a team that deserves a 2 seed. While I don't doubt that the 1 seed in that region could complain, I'd say that's a dumb complaint. There really are significant benefits to being a 1 seed - for instance, you get the 8/9 game winner in the 2nd round rather than the 7/10 game winner, and history shows that almost no teams lose to the 8/9 winner while a fair number do lose to the 7/10 winner, and of course you face the 4/5/12/13 winner in the Sweet 16 rather than the 3/6/11/14 winner. And, absolutely, fans and coaches look for the easy path to the FF because they want to be in the FF, not watching some other team there. It's nice to say "you have to beat whoever's in front of you," but in reality your odds really are better if you face worse opposition along the way.
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In a general sense you make good points but do you honestly think that UConn sees a "significant benefit" from playing the 40th ranked team over the 28th? And the way the committee 'adjusts' seeding to comply with their policies and procedures, along with the fact that seeding is based on the entire season as opposed to how a team is playing at that moment, it is no certainty that the 3 seed is actually better than the 4 seed.
| Quote: |
| The odds say you won't play your A game for six games in a row, so one big key to winning a national title is to find a way to win when you're not playing at A-game level. |
This is a great point. And it's a large reason why UConn has 9 NC's instead of 4 or 5. They rarely play a bad game. Look at the Stanford loss and the barrage of negative comments about how poorly UConn played. Then look at the final score and where the game was played.
In order for a 1 or 2 seed to lose in the first 3 rounds they have to lose to a team ranked 9-16th (or lower if they were upset). The only team that low to beat UConn in recent memory was St Johns, in the 10/11 season. Compare that to a team like Tenn, a one seed last year, who lost at home to 16th ranked LSU and followed up 10 gays later with a loss to unranked Vandi. That sort of inconsistency is what leads to losses against Louisville and Maryland in the S16 & E8.
An elite team can play at a B level and still win 1st and second round games fairly easily. It's the next 4 where there can't be a letdown. Have a C game or have a B game when the 4 seed has an A game and your out. UConn hasn't had one of those a quite a while. And for that matter, neither has Notre Dame.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 11/24/14 4:17 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| Quote: |
FWIW, my take is that a UConn team that gets a 2 seed will be a team that deserves a 2 seed. While I don't doubt that the 1 seed in that region could complain, I'd say that's a dumb complaint. There really are significant benefits to being a 1 seed - for instance, you get the 8/9 game winner in the 2nd round rather than the 7/10 game winner, and history shows that almost no teams lose to the 8/9 winner while a fair number do lose to the 7/10 winner, and of course you face the 4/5/12/13 winner in the Sweet 16 rather than the 3/6/11/14 winner. And, absolutely, fans and coaches look for the easy path to the FF because they want to be in the FF, not watching some other team there. It's nice to say "you have to beat whoever's in front of you," but in reality your odds really are better if you face worse opposition along the way.
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In a general sense you make good points but do you honestly think that UConn sees a "significant benefit" from playing the 40th ranked team over the 28th? And the way the committee 'adjusts' seeding to comply with their policies and procedures, along with the fact that seeding is based on the entire season as opposed to how a team is playing at that moment, it is no certainty that the 3 seed is actually better than the 4 seed. |
The odds of losing to the #28 team are higher than losing to the #40 team for pretty much everyone, and whether it's sufficient to make a difference varies from team to team. It hasn't mattered much to UConn before, but if you posit that a UConn team that gets a #2 seed deserves the #2 seed, as I've suggested, the situation might be different.
The point on adjusting seeds is interesting. However, the single seed that is pretty much guaranteed not to be adjusted is a 1 seed. (Truth be told, 2s, 3s and 4s don't get moved much, either, and the likelihood of being moved goes down as your seed improves.)
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Howee
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