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beknighted
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 Posted: 09/29/14 6:31 am ::: |
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| There's a report on the RU board that Victoria Harris, a 6-3 post from Georgia, has committed to Rutgers.
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purduefanatic
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| Posted: 09/29/14 8:50 am ::: |
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As an aside, it appears (based solely on ESPN's site) that the Big Ten is recruiting MUCH better as a whole. Maryland and Rutgers have both been recruiting well for a while but there has been some concern in recent years that the conference wasn't getting many of the better players in the country. The breakdown for the class of Top 100 players going into the league is as follows:
Michigan - 4 players (#71, #73, #88, #94)
Purdue - 3 (#28, #30, #44)
Nebraska - 2 (#3, #82)
Maryland - 2 (#15, #27)
Penn St - 2 (#21, #31)
Michigan St - 2 (#23, #74)
Illinois - 2 (#66, #92)
Iowa - 1 (#37)
Minnesota - (#86)
That is 19 of the Top 100 players, nearly 20%, that have committed to the Big Ten. With 19 of those Top 100 remaining uncommitted, that actually increases the percentage to 23% of all Top 100 committed players have decided to go to the Big Ten. I haven't checked any other conference but I would assume the ACC (L'ville, ND, Duke, UNC, etc) has a percentage like that as well.
That also represents 9 of the 14 members of the Big Ten so there is some really good distribution as well. A few schools had good to excellent classes in 2014, led by Ohio State so to have the follow-up class be even better is a great sign for the league moving forward. The only 5 teams without a Top 100 selection according to Hoopgurlz are Ohio State, Rutgers, Northwestern, Wisconsin and Indiana...of note, #74 that is going to MSU was actually committed to IU before Curt Miller resigned.
Obviously these rankings don't always pan out but as it stands right now, this has me pretty excited about the future of Big Ten WBB.
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 09/29/14 9:16 am ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
As an aside, it appears (based solely on ESPN's site) that the Big Ten is recruiting MUCH better as a whole. Maryland and Rutgers have both been recruiting well for a while but there has been some concern in recent years that the conference wasn't getting many of the better players in the country. The breakdown for the class of Top 100 players going into the league is as follows:
Michigan - 4 players (#71, #73, #88, #94)
Purdue - 3 (#28, #30, #44)
Nebraska - 2 (#3, #82)
Maryland - 2 (#15, #27)
Penn St - 2 (#21, #31)
Michigan St - 2 (#23, #74)
Illinois - 2 (#66, #92)
Iowa - 1 (#37)
Minnesota - (#86)
That is 19 of the Top 100 players, nearly 20%, that have committed to the Big Ten. With 19 of those Top 100 remaining uncommitted, that actually increases the percentage to 23% of all Top 100 committed players have decided to go to the Big Ten. I haven't checked any other conference but I would assume the ACC (L'ville, ND, Duke, UNC, etc) has a percentage like that as well.
That also represents 9 of the 14 members of the Big Ten so there is some really good distribution as well. A few schools had good to excellent classes in 2014, led by Ohio State so to have the follow-up class be even better is a great sign for the league moving forward. The only 5 teams without a Top 100 selection according to Hoopgurlz are Ohio State, Rutgers, Northwestern, Wisconsin and Indiana...of note, #74 that is going to MSU was actually committed to IU before Curt Miller resigned.
Obviously these rankings don't always pan out but as it stands right now, this has me pretty excited about the future of Big Ten WBB. |
I think you're also seeing a change in philosophy of recruiting. With the exception of Purdue, I have felt that the B1G traditionally focused their recruiting efforts regionally. There are some good kids in the Midwest but the plethora of talent has been in California and Texas and also in areas like Atlanta, New York and the DMV. Maryland, Rutgers and NEbraska have expanded the conference geography. Also, new coaches in old programs like Barnes-Arico and McGuff aren't confined to this tradition and even Borton, before she was ousted, was pulling kids out of Texas and Eastern Canada to come to Minny.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 09/29/14 9:31 am ::: |
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One thing about ranked players and the rankings:
At the very top, it's pretty clear. There are 10 or 12 or 15 or however many elite players. They are the difference-makers, the ones most likely to get a team to the Elite Eight.
There's another band of players, maybe down to 30 (maybe 25, maybe 35) who look to be good enough to start on a Power 5 conference winner.
Then after that, it's pretty much guesswork. The bottom 60 or 70 are capable players with some skill, some of whom might blossom, but none of whom are sure things.
All of this is a long way around to say that collecting top 100 recruits and ranking classes by that number ignores the vast difference between #78, say, and #10. Basketball is a star-driven game, and to be really successful, you need two or three stars. You can run out a bunch of kids who were ranked in the top 100, but unless several of them are top 50 players in college (which means, dividing by four because there are four classes on a college team, so they were top 12 coming out of high school), you're not going to be an elite team.
That doesn't mean the rankings are meaningless, but really, after 50, the difference between #83 and #183 is just what a particular evaluator happens to like, or happens to have seen.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 09/29/14 9:46 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
One thing about ranked players and the rankings:
At the very top, it's pretty clear. There are 10 or 12 or 15 or however many elite players. They are the difference-makers, the ones most likely to get a team to the Elite Eight.
There's another band of players, maybe down to 30 (maybe 25, maybe 35) who look to be good enough to start on a Power 5 conference winner.
Then after that, it's pretty much guesswork. The bottom 60 or 70 are capable players with some skill, some of whom might blossom, but none of whom are sure things.
All of this is a long way around to say that collecting top 100 recruits and ranking classes by that number ignores the vast difference between #78, say, and #10. Basketball is a star-driven game, and to be really successful, you need two or three stars. You can run out a bunch of kids who were ranked in the top 100, but unless several of them are top 50 players in college (which means, dividing by four because there are four classes on a college team, so they were top 12 coming out of high school), you're not going to be an elite team.
That doesn't mean the rankings are meaningless, but really, after 50, the difference between #83 and #183 is just what a particular evaluator happens to like, or happens to have seen. |
I think the number of those top, elite level kids is actually getting a little bigger now. For instance, have you seen the Dominique McBryde kid that has committed to Purdue and is rated #28? She is a flat-out stud at 6'1 that can play just about any position on the floor and drains the '3' with ease. I have been fortunate to see her play a few times and get more impressed every time I watch her.
I generally agree with your overall premise, but I don't think there's quite as much falloff now.
I don't, however, subscribe to your theory that the bottom 60 or 70 (of the Top 100 no less??) are just "capable players with some skill". So in other words, after the few top kids it's just a bunch of whatever I guess. I really don't buy that at all, especially after spending the last 3 days at the latest Blue Star/USJN events in Chicagoland.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 09/29/14 11:58 am ::: |
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With participation in girls' basketball steadily declining, while at the same time participation in volleyball and soccer are rising, the statistics would suggest that there's less talent rather than more ... but it is possible that more elite players are sticking with basketball while the next-level athletes are going in other directions.
And as for the numbers, there are always outliers. Maybe Dominique McBryde should be #9 -- but at the same time, I can pretty much guarantee that one or more of the top 15 will not have outstanding collegiate careers.
As for the bottom half of the top 100, I'm not saying they can't play. What I'm saying is they won't get you to the Elite Eight, and so ranking a recruiting class simply by the number of top 100 players is not a solid analysis. Having two top ten players is much, much, much better than having four players between 60 and 100.
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NoDakSt
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| Posted: 09/29/14 2:21 pm ::: |
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| Destinee Walker, @ number 17 in Hoopgurlz ranking, and a member of the USA 17 basketball squad, will announce her college desitnation any moment now. Duke, UNC, SoCaro, Notre Dame or ???
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NoDakSt
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| Posted: 09/29/14 2:30 pm ::: |
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| Walker to UNC. Good get for Syl.
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Davis4632
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| Posted: 09/29/14 3:13 pm ::: |
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| Great pickup for UNC because they needed some backcourt and wing help with 4 seniors graduating and the strong possibility of reshirt junior often injured Megan Buckland not returning for her fifth year.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 09/29/14 8:04 pm ::: |
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| I'm not sure what's causing this flurry, but Rutgers has a 2nd verbal in just a few days, this time from 6'2" Desiree Keeling of Roanoke, VA (or thereabouts). Another post for RU, filling a definite need for the next class.
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Davis4632
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| Posted: 09/29/14 9:55 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
With participation in girls' basketball steadily declining, while at the same time participation in volleyball and soccer are rising, the statistics would suggest that there's less talent rather than more ... but it is possible that more elite players are sticking with basketball while the next-level athletes are going in other directions.
And as for the numbers, there are always outliers. Maybe Dominique McBryde should be #9 -- but at the same time, I can pretty much guarantee that one or more of the top 15 will not have outstanding collegiate careers.
As for the bottom half of the top 100, I'm not saying they can't play. What I'm saying is they won't get you to the Elite Eight, and so ranking a recruiting class simply by the number of top 100 players is not a solid analysis. Having two top ten players is much, much, much better than having four players between 60 and 100. |
Why is participation in girls basketball declining?
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ClayK
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| Posted: 09/30/14 9:42 am ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
| Why is participation in girls basketball declining? |
Lots of theories, but my best guess is that volleyball is a more attractive sport to most girls, who, for whatever reason, do not like contact as much as boys. The same skill set succeeds in both sports, and the only difference is the net that prevents contact in that regard.
Also, volleyball's culture is much different, which one can see from something as marginal as the pants worn during the games. Basketball players wear the gear the boys wear, which is baggy and shapeless; volleyball players wear tight spandex, which is more flattering in a fashion sense. (You can also wear makeup playing volleyball, and it's a little harder to do in basketball because there's more sweating invovled.)
Volleyball tournaments require teams to stick together for an entire weekend, almost never leaving the gym, and that tends to work for a lot of girls who really enjoy being part of a tight-knit group.
There may well be a racial element involved, as the WNBA is heavily African-American, and so are the upper levels of college basketball, which are the most commonly seen on TV.
Finally, though I don't think parents and young girls realize it, the risk of serious injury (concussions, ACLs) is considerably lower in volleyball.
Regardless, the trend is clear ...
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LitePal
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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| Posted: 09/30/14 9:57 am ::: |
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| And don't forget the other elephant in the room. Girls basketball is thought by many girls to be a sport for lesbians, while volleyball isn't.
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And1
Joined: 19 Feb 2014
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| Posted: 09/30/14 11:03 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| Davis4632 wrote: |
| Why is participation in girls basketball declining? |
Lots of theories, but my best guess is that volleyball is a more attractive sport to most girls, who, for whatever reason, do not like contact as much as boys. The same skill set succeeds in both sports, and the only difference is the net that prevents contact in that regard.
Also, volleyball's culture is much different, which one can see from something as marginal as the pants worn during the games. Basketball players wear the gear the boys wear, which is baggy and shapeless; volleyball players wear tight spandex, which is more flattering in a fashion sense. (You can also wear makeup playing volleyball, and it's a little harder to do in basketball because there's more sweating invovled.)
Volleyball tournaments require teams to stick together for an entire weekend, almost never leaving the gym, and that tends to work for a lot of girls who really enjoy being part of a tight-knit group.
There may well be a racial element involved, as the WNBA is heavily African-American, and so are the upper levels of college basketball, which are the most commonly seen on TV.
Finally, though I don't think parents and young girls realize it, the risk of serious injury (concussions, ACLs) is considerably lower in volleyball.
Regardless, the trend is clear ... |
Where, exactly, is the data to support this "clear trend", or is this just an opinion?
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 09/30/14 12:28 pm ::: |
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| LitePal wrote: |
| And don't forget the other elephant in the room. Girls basketball is thought by many girls to be a sport for lesbians, while volleyball isn't. |
I know some people personally that dislike girls basketball for that reason. Some of them have daughters and they will steer daughter if she's phsycially active into sports like tennis softball, soccer, and volleyball or into activities like dancing or martial arts.
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CalwbbFan
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| Posted: 09/30/14 2:23 pm ::: |
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This is just sad....FWIW I've never understood why female volleyball players have to wear those tight, silly spandex "shorts." Males playing volleyball seem to do quite well wearing shorts. Softball has plenty of makeup and plenty of lesbians (who wear makeup)...so what?
My daughter played rec-league basketball (and soccer and softball) for a number of years and I never ran into parents worried about it influencing their daughter's sexuality. Kids are born gay or straight...and wearing baggy shorts or skin-tight spandex and makeup won't change that fact.
Just caught this documentary on Netflix...watched it with my 16 year old daughter. Worth watching: Miss Representation http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1784538/
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Nixtreefan
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| Posted: 09/30/14 3:09 pm ::: Your opinion |
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You obviously don't but that doesn't stop others wanting something else.
To each their own and it works both ways.
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beknighted
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| Posted: 09/30/14 4:54 pm ::: |
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I can't say I'm that surprised by either the notion that basketball has a lot of lesbians or that there could be recruiting. Basketball is the only women's team sport with a prominent pro league, and so the lesbians in the WNBA get more publicity than the ones in, say, volleyball. And, of course, the "recruiting" canard may never go away. It's a real pity, though. Maybe if our society keeps becoming more open about these things (I refuse to say "tolerant" - it feels like a tacit admission that disapproval is okay), this won't be an issue, but it certainly will take a while to happen.
(As an aside, though, there are a lot of out lesbians in tennis, so it's funny that parents who are worried about these things would stell their children that direction.)
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 09/30/14 5:32 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
I can't say I'm that surprised by either the notion that basketball has a lot of lesbians or that there could be recruiting. Basketball is the only women's team sport with a prominent pro league, and so the lesbians in the WNBA get more publicity than the ones in, say, volleyball. And, of course, the "recruiting" canard may never go away. It's a real pity, though. Maybe if our society keeps becoming more open about these things (I refuse to say "tolerant" - it feels like a tacit admission that disapproval is okay), this won't be an issue, but it certainly will take a while to happen.
(As an aside, though, there are a lot of out lesbians in tennis, so it's funny that parents who are worried about these things would stell their children that direction.) |
Not sure that's true. I'd like to see numbers but it would not surprise me at all if pro beach volleyball has a bigger following than the WNBA. And it seems to get more attention in the summer olympics too.
And regardless of any sexual preference issue, both tennis and volleyball, and even soccer, are in general more feminine in appearance than basketball. And the attire and ink are a big part of that. I expect that matters to a lot of girls when they are deciding what sport to pursue.
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beknighted
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| Posted: 09/30/14 8:42 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
I can't say I'm that surprised by either the notion that basketball has a lot of lesbians or that there could be recruiting. Basketball is the only women's team sport with a prominent pro league, and so the lesbians in the WNBA get more publicity than the ones in, say, volleyball. And, of course, the "recruiting" canard may never go away. It's a real pity, though. Maybe if our society keeps becoming more open about these things (I refuse to say "tolerant" - it feels like a tacit admission that disapproval is okay), this won't be an issue, but it certainly will take a while to happen.
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Not sure that's true. I'd like to see numbers but it would not surprise me at all if pro beach volleyball has a bigger following than the WNBA. And it seems to get more attention in the summer olympics too.
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Granted I have a source bias issue of sorts here, but I couldn't name a single gay volleyball player. I barely know the names of any volleyball player, beach or otherwise. (Misty May-Treanor and Kerri Walsh and then, well, nobody.)
And I think it's quite clear that women's basketball gets more exposure than beach volleyball. The WNBA gets 30 games a year on ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC. Women's pro beach volleyball, well, does not get much coverage other than in Olympic years. (It's on Universal Sports, which I bet most people can't find on their program guides.) The WNBA's average attendance this year was 7,578 over about 200 games, or around 1.5 million. The pro beach volleyball tour (which is men and women both) mostly doesn't charge admission and apparently doesn't release attendance figures.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/30/14 10:42 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
I can't say I'm that surprised by either the notion that basketball has a lot of lesbians or that there could be recruiting. Basketball is the only women's team sport with a prominent pro league, and so the lesbians in the WNBA get more publicity than the ones in, say, volleyball. And, of course, the "recruiting" canard may never go away. It's a real pity, though. Maybe if our society keeps becoming more open about these things (I refuse to say "tolerant" - it feels like a tacit admission that disapproval is okay), this won't be an issue, but it certainly will take a while to happen.
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Not sure that's true. I'd like to see numbers but it would not surprise me at all if pro beach volleyball has a bigger following than the WNBA. And it seems to get more attention in the summer olympics too.
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Granted I have a source bias issue of sorts here, but I couldn't name a single gay volleyball player. I barely know the names of any volleyball player, beach or otherwise. (Misty May-Treanor and Kerri Walsh and then, well, nobody.)
And I think it's quite clear that women's basketball gets more exposure than beach volleyball. The WNBA gets 30 games a year on ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC. Women's pro beach volleyball, well, does not get much coverage other than in Olympic years. (It's on Universal Sports, which I bet most people can't find on their program guides.) The WNBA's average attendance this year was 7,578 over about 200 games, or around 1.5 million. The pro beach volleyball tour (which is men and women both) mostly doesn't charge admission and apparently doesn't release attendance figures. |
That you don't pay attention doesn't mean it isn't on. I just checked and both World Series of Beach Volleyball and the FIVB World Tour are on TV just this week alone. And it's not even the season. It's a big international sport and ESPN just had a blurb about the growth in the US. http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11580722
There are a LOT more than 30 beach volleyball telecasts per year involving multiple leagues on various sports networks.
It doesn't really matter anyhow who watches what. Your assertion was that "Basketball is the only women's team sport with a prominent pro league" and, as I said, I don't believe that's correct.
Or maybe you're correct to the extent there isn't a single league. My impression is that its more like tennis with multiple series and tournaments. But there are pro opportunities for volleyball players.
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 10/01/14 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hyperetic
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 09/30/14 11:14 pm ::: |
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Because of the interest I have seen with my own eyes in female youth basketball in the South and Midwest, I find it hard to fathom a declining trend. But I don't live or travel all over so I can't speak from other areas. There is an interest in volleyball also but around here basketball still takes precedence.
Welcome And1. |
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 10/01/14 1:51 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
I can't say I'm that surprised by either the notion that basketball has a lot of lesbians or that there could be recruiting. Basketball is the only women's team sport with a prominent pro league, and so the lesbians in the WNBA get more publicity than the ones in, say, volleyball. And, of course, the "recruiting" canard may never go away. It's a real pity, though. Maybe if our society keeps becoming more open about these things (I refuse to say "tolerant" - it feels like a tacit admission that disapproval is okay), this won't be an issue, but it certainly will take a while to happen.
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Not sure that's true. I'd like to see numbers but it would not surprise me at all if pro beach volleyball has a bigger following than the WNBA. And it seems to get more attention in the summer olympics too.
* * * * |
Granted I have a source bias issue of sorts here, but I couldn't name a single gay volleyball player. I barely know the names of any volleyball player, beach or otherwise. (Misty May-Treanor and Kerri Walsh and then, well, nobody.)
And I think it's quite clear that women's basketball gets more exposure than beach volleyball. The WNBA gets 30 games a year on ESPN, ESPN2 and ABC. Women's pro beach volleyball, well, does not get much coverage other than in Olympic years. (It's on Universal Sports, which I bet most people can't find on their program guides.) The WNBA's average attendance this year was 7,578 over about 200 games, or around 1.5 million. The pro beach volleyball tour (which is men and women both) mostly doesn't charge admission and apparently doesn't release attendance figures. |
That you don't pay attention doesn't mean it isn't on. I just checked and both World Series of Beach Volleyball and the FIVB World Tour are on TV just this week alone. And it's not even the season. It's a big international sport and ESPN just had a blurb about the growth in the US. http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=11580722
There are a LOT more than 30 beach volleyball telecasts per year involving multiple leagues on various sports networks.
It doesn't really matter anyhow who watches what. Your assertion was that "Basketball is the only women's team sport with a prominent pro league" and, as I said, I don't believe that's correct.
Or maybe you're correct to the extent there isn't a single league. My impression is that its more like tennis with multiple series and tournaments. But there are pro opportunities for volleyball players. |
I'm not sure those are "pro" tours though. I think a good portion of the participates are pro athletes, but I don't think they "pro" events, like the AVP was, or other leagues around the world.
But beach or sand volleyball does get a good amount of television exposure, it has decreased from when the AVP was around, but they still get a good amount, as you mentioned the two events are on TV this week, and their are other ones on during the summer, I can't recall the names, but I watched a couple this past summer.
As far as the gay issue goes, basketball and softball are the two big sports that gay has been linked to, we had a discussion on this topic during the time when Russia made the anti-gay law this thread and Michelle89 mentioned in Holland the gay stereotype is linked with women playing soccer. Obviously playing a sport has nothing to do with who is gay and who is not, but that stereotype still exist and as has been discussed in this thread, and other threads on here.
In terms of pro opportunities for female athletes, overseas, there are softball, volleyball (indoor and beach), soccer, basketball and I believe water polo, and there may be some other sports as well. In the US there is basketball, soccer and softball leagues. There are pro opportunities in beach volleyball and tennis, and pro athletes in swimming, gymnastics and track and field, but as far as I know there isn't one league like the WNBA, there are tours or events they can participate in.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/01/14 6:37 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| That you don't pay attention doesn't mean it isn't on. I just checked and both World Series of Beach Volleyball and the FIVB World Tour are on TV just this week alone. |
Everything's on TV somewhere. Where it's on TV is much more important.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 10/01/14 9:48 am ::: |
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The data for the decline in interest in basketball can be found on the National Federation of High Schools web site under "participation."
It's very real, and very clear.
Still, there are two advantages for basketball:
1) It's much better for TV, as soccer isn't as interesting to most viewers, and volleyball matches vary too widely in time to work for programmers. This is the biggest, and a huge, advantage.
2) Women's basketball has 15 full scholarships available at each D-1 school; volleyball has 12, but my sense is that schools tend to use more of their basketball allocation than volleyball, though I certainly could be wrong. Many basketball programs don't use all 15, and I would guess the same would be true of volleyball's 12. But maybe not, and if most schools use a higher percentage of their available volleyball scholarships than basketball, then that would be further evidence of the relative importance of the two sports.
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