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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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 Posted: 07/29/14 3:30 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Because I have to disagree with your statement that "GG was of the status as a Geno, Pat, Tara, Kim, Jodi, or Sylvia." There is a distinction as wide as the Grand Canyon between her and each of those coaches. Each of them has a National Championship ring. |
Purely opinion. Yours AND mine. But I'd just as vehemently disagree on the "Grand Canyon" thing. First of all on style and substance alone, GG IS every bit their peer. She knew the game, she knew how to recruit, and she knew how to develop kids.
Re: NCs? Gail was one heartbreakingly-close, OT loss away from a NC. Frese stole GG's away from her on almost pure fell-into-$hit luck. Sylvia lucked into hers on a tres debatable non-call. Do those wins make Brenda or Sylvia more deserving? Nope. And Gail's near-miss doesn't make her any less deserving, imo. But yes....it IS all opinion. I'm just glad for GG the HOF-ers concur with mine.
Putting Duke's program on the Map of Elites was her doing. Had she still been there, I have no doubt she'd have that NC, if not by now, then in the near future. I'd say she deserves some credit that Duke is STILL on that map, with little-to-no thanks to Coach P.
You call for some objective standard, some irrefutable benchmarks for recognition. They can't exist in in any objective way....too many *unmeasurables* to consider. Should Kay Yow be there? Robin Roberts? And Molly Bolin is NOT?
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Last edited by Howee on 07/30/14 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 07/29/14 3:43 pm ::: |
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| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Jim Foster is in, due to a long track record of service with both college and USA basketball. I think he had one Final Four at Vanderbilt. A bunch of conference titles at Ohio State. |
Foster has a long record of contribution to the sport, including being one of only two coaches with 200 wins at three different schools, and probably the most impressive coaching tree in WCBB, which includes Geno Auriemma, Muffet McGraw, Deb Patterson, Stephanie Gaitley, Cindy Griffith, Pat Coyle, and Debbie Black.
He was national COY a couple of times. He's been HC or an assistant on nine different USA Basketball teams, and is now the chair of the Women's Junior National Team Committee.
I don't have any problem with Foster being in the HOF.
Just as I have no problem with Any Landers - another coach without a NC, but who has 5 final fours, seven SEC regular season titles, and four national COY awards.
I never meant to imply that a NC was a prerequisite. But again, how do you balance all these different factors?
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LegoMyEggo
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
Posts: 284
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| Posted: 07/29/14 3:48 pm ::: |
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| Holly Warlick is already in. Maybe the first case of a Hall of Famer being succeeded by another Hall of Famer. LOL
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 07/29/14 3:55 pm ::: |
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| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Holly Warlick is already in. Maybe the first case of a Hall of Famer being succeeded by another Hall of Famer. LOL |
If you mean a current Hall of Famer replacing a current Hall of Famer, I bet you're right. Rutgers also had a Hall of Famer replace a Hall of Famer, but both got in after the succession took place (in fact, in the same class, so RU went from 0 HoF coaches directly to 2).
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 07/29/14 4:01 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Peck would be a good discusion too. I think she probably is a lock, but there's a question whether she should be. But again, what are the standards that should be met? |
I'm curious why you think she should be a lock. Here's her resume as a head coach (I think it's clear she wouldn't be considered as a player):
Purdue 1997-1999 (2 seasons) - Elite 8, National Championship
Orlando Miracle* 1999-2001 (3 seasons) - 44-52, 1 playoff berth, losing in the 1st round
Florida - 2002-2007 (5 seasons) - 72-75, 2 NCAA berths (1-2 record)
*Not sure anyone really considers WNBA coaching in WBHoF decisions, although of course they should.
So, three teams, a national championship at one, the other two with losing records, and a total of 10 years as a head coach. I'm not sure why that would justify putting her in unless you think a national championship is an automatic qualifier. |
The WBHOF requires a minimum of 20 years as a coach to be considered for enshrinement. Unless Peck goes back to the bench, she won't get in.
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LegoMyEggo
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 07/29/14 4:11 pm ::: |
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| Is it 20 years of coaching in any capacity? i.e. assistant or support staff member?
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/14 4:33 pm ::: |
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| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Is it 20 years of coaching in any capacity? i.e. assistant or support staff member? |
Their website says Coach: Must have coached the women’s game at least 20 years. I am unaware of any coach being inducted who did not have at least 20 years as a head coach at some level.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 07/29/14 4:37 pm ::: |
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| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Holly Warlick is already in. Maybe the first case of a Hall of Famer being succeeded by another Hall of Famer. LOL |
Warlick is in as a player, though, and not a coach.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 07/29/14 4:37 pm ::: |
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| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Is it 20 years of coaching in any capacity? i.e. assistant or support staff member? |
And do they count time as a player? Do they count time as a broadcaster? It looks like the nomination form even considers time as an official.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 07/29/14 4:52 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Is it 20 years of coaching in any capacity? i.e. assistant or support staff member? |
And do they count time as a player? Do they count time as a broadcaster? It looks like the nomination form even considers time as an official. |
The site says exactly what pilight quoted. It would appear, in any event, that the 4 categories are considered separately - player, coach, referee and contributor.
BTW, on the subject of coaches who've won national championships, Mulkey is in already as a player, so she's probably not going to get in as a coach as well.
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LegoMyEggo
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 07/29/14 6:05 pm ::: |
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| I think sometimes we drift away from the simplicity of the entity's title- "Hall of FAME"- basically, the concept must've started as a place for FAMOUS people in that sport. That could be its own subjectively defined criteria. I would certainly say GG qualified as "famous" within the sport.
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 07/30/14 1:28 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Those are good points. Which is why I asked well up the thread what the standards are (or should be), a question which remains largely unanswered.
There's a serious question of how high the bar should be. Making it too easy might stroke a lot of people's (and fans') egos, but devalues it for the truly deserving. It should really mean something, but it shouldn't be impossible either.
Ryan is almost a perfect match to Goestenkors. About 70% wins, 3 final fours, lots of ACC titles, a Naismith COY. If one should be in, both should. Weller is a tougher case. But I don't think showing you're as good as someone already in means you shoul be in. All that would do is compound the error.
It seems we ought to define what the standards ought to be before we can discuss who meets those standards. My own reaction is that Goestenkors (and Ryan), are pretty borderline.
Peck would be a good discusion too. I think she probably is a lock, but there's a question whether she should be. But again, what are the standards that should be met? |
Interesting points, but when you think about Gail's contributions to the actual game of women's basketball, and where Duke women were in 1992 vs. 2007, then it's pretty remarkable. Her departure and the current state of the program (another thread) shouldn't impact what her legacy is on the sport; that program not only became a national program, but think the respect it brought to women's basketball merit some further analysis. Suddenly, Durham cared about Pat Summit and the Lady Vols; they booed Taurasi, they sold out when Hatchell and the Heels came into town. That all changed in the 1990s under Gail and I think it had a strong impact on the sport overall. Tennessee, Notre Dame, UConn, Baylor, and Stanford level? Not quite, and that "not quite" is actually a distinctin around the championship ring. But right up there.
So that growth, especially under the Duke brand as it pertains to college basketball supremacy, impacted the women's side of the sport simply with that association and it's a big deal when you thin about the media attention and prestige that came along with it. Duke was a sleeping giant in women's basketball.
Throw in the fact that she commanded a $1M salary to rebuild Texas, her association with USA Basketball, and even her willingness to try out the WNBA for two minutes, you can't argue that Gail hasn't had a WBHOF-caliber impact on the game. She's almost always done the right thing, she's respected the game's leaders before her, and she was known in coaching as a smart, class-act, and her teams, especially from 2002-2007, played a great brand of women's basketball that most people would be proud of.
I say deserved - and a bit more than her ACC pioneer peers in Weller and Ryan.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 07/30/14 8:06 am ::: |
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Peck is most definitely not a HOFer....good lord, the players basically coached that team to the National Championship. Ukari Figgs, Stephanie White, Camille Cooper and Katie Douglas were the glue that made that team. That title is most definitely an aberration.
And please don't tell me her TV time gets her in...I find her very difficult to listen to and in fact, I pretty much turn the channel or turn the volume down.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/30/14 11:10 am ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
Peck is most definitely not a HOFer....good lord, the players basically coached that team to the National Championship. Ukari Figgs, Stephanie White, Camille Cooper and Katie Douglas were the glue that made that team. That title is most definitely an aberration.
And please don't tell me her TV time gets her in...I find her very difficult to listen to and in fact, I pretty much turn the channel or turn the volume down. |
I'd been waiting for the Purdue people to weigh in on Ms. Peck. (By the way, have you read her Wikipedia page? What it has to say about her time at Purdue and the, uh, transition to Orlando is not very flattering.)
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