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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 06/16/14 1:28 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Youth Coach wrote: |
Oh please, disgusted by a piss poor attitude is not hating someone.
What would be nice is seeing people not dismissing her attitude issues because she's a teenager. |
How about not making a judgement on someone when you know nothing about them, you don't know what happened to her, why she did what she did, what she was thinking, what she felt, etc., yet you are disgusted by her attitude and hope she gets a better one during the year she sits out.
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't be turned off by her attitude in that one moment, but why are you going to use that one moment to make an overall judgement on her as a person. |
I don't know Dennis Rodman, Allen Iverson, Terrel Owens, Aaron Hernandez, or OJ Simpson personally either, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize what they say or how they act in public or draw conclusions about them from their public behavior. |
X_______________
And such speculation comes with the territory of being an elite athlete, or any kind of a celebrity. If someone accepts the benefits, then they have to accept the downside. |
While that is true, that is completely stupid in my opinion, and that is what leads fans to thing they can say whatever they want to players at games, on twitter, on facebook, on instagram, etc. |
So criticizing someone's attitude is somehow the same as cursing at them, insulting their family, or other nonsense?
Are you saying that all athletes should be immune from any criticism whatsoever become some fans themselves act like jerks?
Look at all the ESPN talk shows and talking heads you're going to put out of business. Well, on second though, maybe THAT would be a good thing. 
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linkster
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Jlcarter
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summertime blues
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bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
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| Posted: 06/16/14 9:54 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| Rock Hard wrote: |
It does not matter if you love her attitude or hate it. She has to do what is best for her and to mature at her own speed. If you do not like her attitude then make it your business not to watch any games she participates in. That way your eyes will not be offended.  |
I think that's a little disingenuous. For one thing, DeShields is a huge, huge talent who could be a charismatic star at the highest levels -- and at that point, in terms of the game as a whole, her attitude is crucial. If she's perceived positively, the whole sport benefits; if she's perceived negatively, a chance to grow is missed.
I'm not blaming Chamique Holdsclaw, but her problems not only hurt her, but the game as a whole. |
Get over it. Mental health is a national issue. It hurts everyone. Thank God Chamique has finally found a therapist who is treating her properly. She has not had an easy life. |
I assume you also have nothing but compassion for Tucker's boyfriend who obviously was "off his meds" when he stalked her in an oddly similar situation.. |
That psychopath in Jannah Tucker's situation didn't just "stalk" her, he held her prisoner and beat her repeatedly with various implements. So, that is a really bad analogy. And really tasteless for you to so blithely bring it up as a sarcastic little dig at another poster.
Last edited by bekcat1 on 06/17/14 12:11 am; edited 6 times in total |
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 06/16/14 10:58 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Youth Coach wrote: |
Oh please, disgusted by a piss poor attitude is not hating someone.
What would be nice is seeing people not dismissing her attitude issues because she's a teenager. |
How about not making a judgement on someone when you know nothing about them, you don't know what happened to her, why she did what she did, what she was thinking, what she felt, etc., yet you are disgusted by her attitude and hope she gets a better one during the year she sits out.
I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't be turned off by her attitude in that one moment, but why are you going to use that one moment to make an overall judgement on her as a person. |
I don't know Dennis Rodman, Allen Iverson, Terrel Owens, Aaron Hernandez, or OJ Simpson personally either, but that doesn't mean I can't criticize what they say or how they act in public or draw conclusions about them from their public behavior. |
X_______________
And such speculation comes with the territory of being an elite athlete, or any kind of a celebrity. If someone accepts the benefits, then they have to accept the downside. |
While that is true, that is completely stupid in my opinion, and that is what leads fans to thing they can say whatever they want to players at games, on twitter, on facebook, on instagram, etc. |
So criticizing someone's attitude is somehow the same as cursing at them, insulting their family, or other nonsense?
Are you saying that all athletes should be immune from any criticism whatsoever become some fans themselves act like jerks?
Look at all the ESPN talk shows and talking heads you're going to put out of business. Well, on second though, maybe THAT would be a good thing. |
Well no, that is not what I said. In my first message I said that you shouldn't use one moment to make an overall judgement on a person. Just because they did something you don't like why should you now then have the right to make a judgment on the overall person, why can't you (in the general sense) criticize the act without criticizing the person.
And I brought up the part about facebook and other social medias because I had just read in another thread about people wishing injuries upon Tina Charles because they didn't like her attitude. And of course not everyone is like that, I don't believe everyone is, but typically the people who are like that are the ones who will use the excuse that they are in the public spot light so they are fair game.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:10 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
And I brought up the part about facebook and other social medias because I had just read in another thread about people wishing injuries upon Tina Charles because they didn't like her attitude. And of course not everyone is like that, I don't believe everyone is, but typically the people who are like that are the ones who will use the excuse that they are in the public spot light so they are fair game. |
People who post trash like that certainly deserve to be criticized for it, but I fail to see how their actions disqualify everyone else from posting fair criticism of players.
Being fair game doesn't mean inappropriate or hateful comments are acceptable. Probably no WCBB player has ever subjected to more hateful foul trash than Brittney Griner, but that didn't immunize her from deserved criticism, fairly presented, for "the punch" as an example.
As an aside, I've never understood the one incident to be the exclusive basis for Youth Coach's opinion of DeShields; from previous discussions I'm under the impression it just reconfirmed a more broadly founded view.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:17 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
And I brought up the part about facebook and other social medias because I had just read in another thread about people wishing injuries upon Tina Charles because they didn't like her attitude. And of course not everyone is like that, I don't believe everyone is, but typically the people who are like that are the ones who will use the excuse that they are in the public spot light so they are fair game. |
People who post trash like that certainly deserve to be criticized for it, but I fail to see how their actions disqualify everyone else from posting fair criticism of players.
Being fair game doesn't mean inappropriate or hateful comments are acceptable. Probably no WCBB player has ever subjected to more hateful trash than Brittney Griner, but that didn't immunize her from deserved criticism for "the punch" as an example.
As an aside, I've never understood the one incident to be the exclusive basis for Youth Coach's opinion of DeShields; from previous discussions I'm under the impression it just reconfirmed a more broadly founded view. |
Again, that is not what I said. I have clearly said to criticize the action not the person. Nothing about players are immune from criticize or they should never be criticized. And as you bring up Brittney Griner and the punch, I don't have a problem with people criticizing her actions in that one moment, saying how they feel about it, but you can use that moment to define Brittney Griner as a person, and I'm pretty sure many people still do, at least many people did when they used it for reasons as to why she shouldn't be drafted #1 and why she deserves to lose, and why she shouldn't be on the US National Team, etc..
And as I said, I know not everyone post things like wishing injuries upon another player, but typically that is the excuse they use as to why they feel they can say whatever they want.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:27 pm ::: |
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I haven't seen anyone here advocating that posters "can say whatever they want".
That's a total red herring.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:35 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I haven't seen anyone here advocating that posters "can say whatever they want".
That's a total red herring. |
Ok, well if you are just going to be making up things why even try to have a conversation with you, I didn't say anyone ever said that, I said people use that as an excuse when they say thing.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:43 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I haven't seen anyone here advocating that posters "can say whatever they want".
That's a total red herring. |
Ok, well if you are just going to be making up things why even try to have a conversation with you, I didn't say anyone ever said that, I said people use that as an excuse when they say thing. |
Maybe I misunderstood, but it looked to me that you've presented that some people use a phony "fair game" excuse for hate mongering as your argument against all criticism. If that's not what you meant can you explain what the actions of some internet idiots has to do with this thread at all? What was the purpose of interjecting that into this discussion?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 06/17/14 9:13 am ::: |
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Diamond DeShields is an outstanding basketball player who, over her time in the national spotlight, has drawn criticism for her actions on the court. Those actions might affect the outcome of the game in terms of how hard she plays at a given time, or the attitude of fans toward her and her team, or the attitude of her teammates.
She's a young woman, and certainly not the only young woman with some attitude, and not the only young athlete.
But given her status as one of the top young players in the world, questions and comments about her attitude seem well within the boundaries of message board and fan conversation. Now if we were making the same comments about the 12th player on the North Carolina roster, who doesn't get the same level of praise, maybe there would be a sense people are picking on her for no good reason.
But DeShields, like Griner, like Taurasi, like LeBron, will have her attitude examined, especially if there's a sense that it impacts her team, or the attitude of sports fans in general to women's basketball.
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Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 06/21/14 1:03 am ::: |
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| bekcat1 wrote: |
At Tennessee, it's about more than wins and losses (although the Lady Vols do their fair share of winning). It's also about educating and graduating student athletes, developing their character,
and going about their business in the most ethical way possible. No program goes about it cleaner than Tennessee, and no one knows that better than Holly.
I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Holly's situation is anything less than permanent. She's not going anywhere. The Lady Vols are in very good, very qualified hands. |
Now, I'm no TN hater, but I'd disagree with the underlined part above; just ask people like Jennings and Moshak, who were screwed by TN. And I'm not so sure that Warlick is as safe as some might want to believe. I'd certainly hope she is--I like her--but with the new AD, is anything 100%?
Though your general ideas are meant (I think) to reflect any given player's experience, I do believe this change in *climate* towards the administrators/coaches can have at least an indirect impact on team members, too.
Re: Diamond's 'attitude'? I'm a fan of hers, but yes, I'd agree that she is, by now, too experienced in the protocol of elite athletes at this point to be *excused* for any public displays of bad attitude on a consistent basis. Who knows? People insinuated that UNC was not a good place to refine her in that regard; maybe TN will be better for her in that regard.
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"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 06/21/14 10:24 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
At Tennessee, it's about more than wins and losses (although the Lady Vols do their fair share of winning). It's also about educating and graduating student athletes, developing their character,
and going about their business in the most ethical way possible. No program goes about it cleaner than Tennessee, and no one knows that better than Holly.
I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Holly's situation is anything less than permanent. She's not going anywhere. The Lady Vols are in very good, very qualified hands. |
Now, I'm no TN hater, but I'd disagree with the underlined part above; just ask people like Jennings and Moshak, who were screwed by TN. And I'm not so sure that Warlick is as safe as some might want to believe. I'd certainly hope she is--I like her--but with the new AD, is anything 100%?
Though your general ideas are meant (I think) to reflect any given player's experience, I do believe this change in *climate* towards the administrators/coaches can have at least an indirect impact on team members, too.
Re: Diamond's 'attitude'? I'm a fan of hers, but yes, I'd agree that she is, by now, too experienced in the protocol of elite athletes at this point to be *excused* for any public displays of bad attitude on a consistent basis. Who knows? People insinuated that UNC was not a good place to refine her in that regard; maybe TN will be better for her in that regard. |
Your disagreement would be with Dave Hart, the AD, not with the Tennessee basketball program. It was Heartless Dave who screwed Debby Jennings and Jenny Moshak, not to mention Joan Cronan and basically the whole women's athletic department, NOT the Lady Vols basketball program. That program continues its business IN SPITE OF Heartless Dave, just as bekcat described. He will be gone one day, Lord willing, just as all previous ADs have been gone, and with him hopefully the chancellor too. They have done more to damage the university than anyone in living memory. (not just the Lady Vols program) It's a long story.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
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| Posted: 06/21/14 1:13 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| Howee wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
At Tennessee, it's about more than wins and losses (although the Lady Vols do their fair share of winning). It's also about educating and graduating student athletes, developing their character,
and going about their business in the most ethical way possible. No program goes about it cleaner than Tennessee, and no one knows that better than Holly.
I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Holly's situation is anything less than permanent. She's not going anywhere. The Lady Vols are in very good, very qualified hands. |
Now, I'm no TN hater, but I'd disagree with the underlined part above; just ask people like Jennings and Moshak, who were screwed by TN. And I'm not so sure that Warlick is as safe as some might want to believe. I'd certainly hope she is--I like her--but with the new AD, is anything 100%?
Though your general ideas are meant (I think) to reflect any given player's experience, I do believe this change in *climate* towards the administrators/coaches can have at least an indirect impact on team members, too.
Re: Diamond's 'attitude'? I'm a fan of hers, but yes, I'd agree that she is, by now, too experienced in the protocol of elite athletes at this point to be *excused* for any public displays of bad attitude on a consistent basis. Who knows? People insinuated that UNC was not a good place to refine her in that regard; maybe TN will be better for her in that regard. |
The underlined portion of my comment refers to the basketball program itself, not the athletic department.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15733
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 06/21/14 8:22 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| bekcat1 wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
At Tennessee, it's about more than wins and losses (although the Lady Vols do their fair share of winning). It's also about educating and graduating student athletes, developing their character,
and going about their business in the most ethical way possible. No program goes about it cleaner than Tennessee, and no one knows that better than Holly.
I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Holly's situation is anything less than permanent. She's not going anywhere. The Lady Vols are in very good, very qualified hands. |
Now, I'm no TN hater, but I'd disagree with the underlined part above; just ask people like Jennings and Moshak, who were screwed by TN. And I'm not so sure that Warlick is as safe as some might want to believe. I'd certainly hope she is--I like her--but with the new AD, is anything 100%?
Though your general ideas are meant (I think) to reflect any given player's experience, I do believe this change in *climate* towards the administrators/coaches can have at least an indirect impact on team members, too.
Re: Diamond's 'attitude'? I'm a fan of hers, but yes, I'd agree that she is, by now, too experienced in the protocol of elite athletes at this point to be *excused* for any public displays of bad attitude on a consistent basis. Who knows? People insinuated that UNC was not a good place to refine her in that regard; maybe TN will be better for her in that regard. |
The underlined portion of my comment refers to the basketball program itself, not the athletic department. |
I get that, but my concern is how, in a NY minute (it seemed) ANY body could come in and trash people like that, with Pat sill on the scene. I just would have expected that the Institution that is the Lady Vol program might have helped protect some of these gals better than it did, and I hope it isn't a step towards undermining the basketball program.
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
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Location: The ATL
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| Posted: 06/22/14 12:53 am ::: |
Reply |
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| Howee wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
At Tennessee, it's about more tan wins and losses (although the Lady Vols do their fair share of winning). It's also about educating and graduating student athletes, developing their character,
and going about their business in the most ethical way possible. No program goes about it cleaner than Tennessee, and no one knows that better than Holly.
I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Holly's situation is anything less than permanent. She's not going anywhere. The Lady Vols are in very good, very qualified hands. |
Now, I'm no TN hater, but I'd disagree with the underlined part above; just ask people like Jennings and Moshak, who were screwed by TN. And I'm not so sure that Warlick is as safe as some might want to believe. I'd certainly hope she is--I like her--but with the new AD, is anything 100%?
Though your general ideas are meant (I think) to reflect any given player's experience, I do believe this change in *climate* towards the administrators/coaches can have at least an indirect impact on team members, too.
Re: Diamond's 'attitude'? I'm a fan of hers, but yes, I'd agree that she is, by now, too experienced in the protocol of elite athletes at this point to be *excused* for any public displays of bad attitude on a consistent basis. Who knows? People insinuated that UNC was not a good place to refine her in that regard; maybe TN will be better for her in that regard. |
The underlined portion of my comment refers to the basketball program itself, not the athletic department. |
I get that, but my concern is how, in a NY minute (it seemed) ANY body could come in and trash people like that, with Pat sill on the scene. I just would have expected that the Institution that is the Lady Vol program might have helped protect some of these gals better than it did, and I hope it isn't a step towards undermining the basketball program. |
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm going to take a stab at it anyhow. First, the lawsuits have not affected the team or the staff's ability to recruit. It hasn't scared any off. I think that's a testiment to how stable Holly has made her program. Holly did recommend Heather Mason's firing, but I think she wanted a different POV in strength and conditioning and had nothing to do with the lawsuits currently going.
I guess Pat commanded so much respect that a lot of this stuff really didn't pick up steam until after she retired (the initial Moshak/Mason suit did begin before Pat stepped down). And I imagine Holly comes fairly cheap, and is giving pretty good results (good enough to have gotten her a raise after her first season). Her recruiting has been stellar. I think that once she gets a team full of her own recruits solely is when her results should be more closely scrutinized (she has a couple more seasons).
Having said that, I don't trust Hart as far as I could throw him. He'll say in private that he wants to eliminate the Lady Vol logo, but when that info leaks out, he backs right down. So, no, I don't think everything will be 100% as long as he's there. But right now, things are stable, and I think they will be for the time being (UT's Director of Bands got fired during the football season, but I'm not sure if Hart had anything to do with it. The Band Director refused to go to meetings with the Athletic Department to plan for Saturday football games).
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 06/22/14 10:35 am ::: |
Reply |
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| bekcat1 wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
At Tennessee, it's about more tan wins and losses (although the Lady Vols do their fair share of winning). It's also about educating and graduating student athletes, developing their character,
and going about their business in the most ethical way possible. No program goes about it cleaner than Tennessee, and no one knows that better than Holly.
I don't know where anyone gets the idea that Holly's situation is anything less than permanent. She's not going anywhere. The Lady Vols are in very good, very qualified hands. |
Now, I'm no TN hater, but I'd disagree with the underlined part above; just ask people like Jennings and Moshak, who were screwed by TN. And I'm not so sure that Warlick is as safe as some might want to believe. I'd certainly hope she is--I like her--but with the new AD, is anything 100%?
Though your general ideas are meant (I think) to reflect any given player's experience, I do believe this change in *climate* towards the administrators/coaches can have at least an indirect impact on team members, too.
Re: Diamond's 'attitude'? I'm a fan of hers, but yes, I'd agree that she is, by now, too experienced in the protocol of elite athletes at this point to be *excused* for any public displays of bad attitude on a consistent basis. Who knows? People insinuated that UNC was not a good place to refine her in that regard; maybe TN will be better for her in that regard. |
The underlined portion of my comment refers to the basketball program itself, not the athletic department. |
I get that, but my concern is how, in a NY minute (it seemed) ANY body could come in and trash people like that, with Pat sill on the scene. I just would have expected that the Institution that is the Lady Vol program might have helped protect some of these gals better than it did, and I hope it isn't a step towards undermining the basketball program. |
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'm going to take a stab at it anyhow. First, the lawsuits have not affected the team or the staff's ability to recruit. It hasn't scared any off. I think that's a testiment to how stable Holly has made her program. Holly did recommend Heather Mason's firing, but I think she wanted a different POV in strength and conditioning and had nothing to do with the lawsuits currently going.
I guess Pat commanded so much respect that a lot of this stuff really didn't pick up steam until after she retired (the initial Moshak/Mason suit did begin before Pat stepped down). And I imagine Holly comes fairly cheap, and is giving pretty good results (good enough to have gotten her a raise after her first season). Her recruiting has been stellar. I think that once she gets a team full of her own recruits solely is when her results should be more closely scrutinized (she has a couple more seasons).
Having said that, I don't trust Hart as far as I could throw him. He'll say in private that he wants to eliminate the Lady Vol logo, but when that info leaks out, he backs right down. So, no, I don't think everything will be 100% as long as he's there. But right now, things are stable, and I think they will be for the time being (UT's Director of Bands got fired during the football season, but I'm not sure if Hart had anything to do with it. The Band Director refused to go to meetings with the Athletic Department to plan for Saturday football games). |
Off the subject, bekcat, but the way I understand it, Heartless Dave was spang in the middle of that mess. The last AD was ineffectual, but HD is flat out despicable.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
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| Posted: 06/22/14 10:44 am ::: |
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| You're probably right. My memory isn't the greatest.
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 06/22/14 11:12 am ::: |
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| I thought the Holly hire was a mollification attempt on Hart's part directed at fans of Tennessee womens' sports who were angry about the changes with the Lady Vol brand and the treatment to personnel in the Lady Vol program. To me, the hire seemed like a way of saying we want to show loyalty to those still close to the program while at the same time saying, the remaining standard bearers associated with the program are transitioning into the new way of doing things.
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bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
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Location: The ATL
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| Posted: 06/22/14 11:41 am ::: |
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| NoDakSt wrote: |
| I thought the Holly hire was a mollification attempt on Hart's part directed at fans of Tennessee womens' sports who were angry about the changes with the Lady Vol brand and the treatment to personnel in the Lady Vol program. To me, the hire seemed like a way of saying we want to show loyalty to those still close to the program while at the same time saying, the remaining standard bearers associated with the program are transitioning into the new way of doing things. |
Holly was Pat's choice and Hart agreed.
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